Everyone here agrees that conflating militants or government officials with civillians is wrong, right? So conflating Israelis with any real or hypothetical action by the Israeli military or a pro-warcrimes view by an Isreali official like Ben Gvir is wrong, and conflating Palestinian/Gazan civillians with the actions of Palestinian terrorist groups or the views of public figures in support of those terrorist groups is wrong.
From your same Gallup source, in 2012, Palestinians supported a two-state solution, 60% v 40%. I would argue that the hardline approach favored by successive right-wing Israeli governments and unrelenting continuance of Israeli settlement-building in the West Bank has convinced many Palestinians that Israel is not serious about finding a peaceful solution. Instead, they are seeing the Palestinian West Bank slowly taken away from them year-on-year until the time comes when Israel formally annexes it, while those in Gaza are forced to live in an “open-air prison”. I feel the Palestinian viewpoint is essentially one of hopelessness, which ultimately leads to desperation. The side that holds the power, and who can therefore implement a political solution, is Israel, but instead of travelling on a path towards peace, which would involve granting the Palestinians a homeland, they appear to be going in the opposite direction, which is one of subjugation.
I’m really not sure what these polls are meant to prove. There aren’t two sides–Israelis and Palestinians. These groups aren’t monolithic. Polls that show less than 100% support among an ethnic group for a political position prove that this framing of sides is imaginary.
One framing that makes more sense to me is this: there’s the side that wants to wage war, and there’s the side that doesn’t. Even this is far too simplistic, but it’s more accurate than “Palestinians and Israelis.” If I could allow all the folks who want war to enter an arena and go at it against one another, I’d take that chance in a heartbeat.
The problem is that that people who want to solve the conflict with war are writing their wishes in the blood of those who haven’t made this choice.
Yes, the political left and center in Israel still overwhelmingly believe peaceful coexistence with an independent Palestine is possible, but they aren’t the ones in power.
Two-state solution? Israelis have grown more skeptical | Pew Research Center.
And I would argue that when Israelis see repeated terrorist and rocket attacks, with not a soul on the Palestinian side arguing against this - when the supposedly moderate guy that we can work with wrote a literal book on holocaust denial - that they do not believe that the Palestinians are serious about peace either.
You are right that the Israeli left which calls for peaceful coexistence is not currently in power in Israel, but this is because their message is argued to be discredited by the fact that they don’t have any peace-seeking counterparts on the Palestinian side.
As I’ve said a number of times before, I don’t agree with this argument; I think it is true that currently there is no one significant on the other side seeking a peaceful resolution, but I believe that Israel as a democracy that values human rights is capable of taking the first step in a way that Palestinians as governed by terrorist groups are simply not capable of. But there is a reason why Netanyahu’s position (which is not equivalent to Ben Gvir’s position, incidentally, although both are odious) is popular, and that has to do with the behavior of the Palestinian authorities in the past.
Is there anyone in a position of authority on the Palestinian side who is the equivalent of the Israeli left who should assuage this skepticism? As a supporter of a two state solution, I honestly do not have a good rebuttal for this skepticism.
This is one example that I found. Was it perhaps poor timing? Yes. But he’s also not wrong - some of the things Israel is doing in retaliation are war crimes under international standards.
I said this to my personal circle the day after the Hamas invasion into Israel: Israel will go scorched earth on Gaza for this. And that’s the path they continue to be on. Yes they’ve given “time” for Palestinians to evacuate. I use air quotes as I don’t think they really care if all of the civilians get out before the ground offensive begins, but they need to give the appearance to the rest of the global community that they tried.
And they won’t qualm about taking on Lebanon either, but will need further support from the US if it escalates in that direction, which is why we have 2 aircraft carriers in the vicinity and 2,000 troops close by.
I think Hamas overplayed their hand with their invasion. They thought the backlash from Israel would be tempered due to geopolitical repercussions from an all out retaliation against Palestinians.
It continues to be a study in geopolitical responses playing out as it unfolds.
A two state solution is very unlikely to happen. The Israelis don’t want it because they think an independent Palestine would basically put Iran on their border, and the Israelis would lose the ability to control weaponry flowing into the Palestinian state.
The Palestinians don’t want it because they have been told that one day all of Israel will be theirs, so long as they don’t give up and accept a lesser parcel of land as a state.
In the meantime, the Arab countries have been happy to make the Palestinians a giant thorn in Israel’s side. I think the only people who really want a two-state solution are the international left and maybe a couple of Arab states that want to do business with Israel and are tired of the Palestinian situation.
I think a lot of well meaning people would like peace and believe peace is the best path to prosperity. They may certainly be naïve or idealistic. It seems so presently. But it is not hard to see many sides being tired of this situation for many reasons. Better to happen sooner than later, which may be unlikely, but better calmer temperatures happen eventually than to never occur.
Probably a topic for another thread, but as time goes on, Israeli settlements make a two-state solution legalistically more and more impractical, even ignoring how difficult it would be to get all parties to agree on anything.
It would have been a logistical nightmare even to follow through with any path to a two-state solution around the time of the Oslo Accords, and since then, settler population in the West Bank has tripled. The settler population in the West Bank dwarfs the number of settlers that were evicted during the 2005 disengagement. At this point, an autonomous Palestinian West Bank as long as the existing settlements are there, another settlement clearing on the scale necessary would essentially amount to an ethnic cleansing of Israelis in the West Bank, and it’s very hard to imagine a feasible land-swap that could make up the difference.
I can’t imagine it either. But that doesn’t make it impossible.
Btw “legalistically” should be “logistically”
they were the elected government from 2007 to 2011 for a 4 year term. Since then they are NOT and run an autocratic dictatorship.
I often read phrases that make it sound like the Hamas is the legitimate government of gaza … they are NOT.
This needs to be very clear
Ah. I knew they’ve been running an autocratic dictatorship, but I didn’t remember that the 2006 election was specifically for a 4 year term. Thanks for info.
Although, the unofficial slogan at the time was “one man, one vote, one time”. I think everyone knew they wouldn’t allow another election if they came to power.
I thought the Palestinian Authority was the government, not that they’ve allowed elections for about twenty years.
People talk of a “Two-State Solution” [there is even a Wikipedia page with this title], but I daresay Palestinians do not want to be trapped in a failed, corrupt, or useless state.
It’s my understanding that the Palestinian Authority governed Gaza until 2007, when they were ousted by Hamas. And then Hamas has not had elections since then, because they know that they would not win.
Well, that may be part of it, but I think their ideology is fundamentally (heh) anti-democratic. And in fairness, the “moderates” in the West Bank haven’t gotten around to holding elections since 2006, either.