Hamas IS the Palestinian leadership, in Gaza. Abbas (who has a literal PhD in Holocaust denial) is the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank.
It is incredibly silly to strip the Palestinian people of all agency by claiming that they “have no leadership” when they very clearly do.
And Hamas did not take over Gaza “thanks to” Netanyahu. That’s ridiculous revisionist history.
What “facts”? That some soldiers said things to the press? Yes, they did. Does that indicate that the things they said happened actually happened? I’m not nearly as confident in that as you seem to be.
I never said that you are dishonest. And I wouldn’t say that you’re delusional so much as deluded by intentionally bad actors.
And just because I don’t choose to argue over every incorrect thing you say does not mean I concede that you are right on the facts; it’s just that there’s no point trying to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into, and your position that the IDF should always be assumed to be lying is not a reasoned one. So I see no point in engaging on that.
So that’s it. That’s the difference. We can stop the discussion – this is why we disagree so strongly. Undoubtedly there are several similar examples in which you doubt reports from the media that I think are likely correct.
As for the IDF, I don’t think they’re necessarily always lying, but based on their recent history, they’re about as trustworthy as Hamas, or the Trump administration, or the Netanyahu administration – sometimes they tell the truth, but there’s no way to know without corroborating evidence, so their independent, unsupported reports should be ignored until there’s independent supporting evidence.
Well, yeah, obviously. Like the time that the media reported that Israel bombed a hospital and destroyed it killing 500 people, and then it turned out that all elements of the story were false: it was a PIJ rocket that misfired and hit a parking lot, causing no damage at all to the “destroyed” hospital and killing a much smaller number of people who were out in said parking lot.
It’s like the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect, but ironically Palestine is the example Crichton gives of a topic you know nothing about and turn the page to, when for me it’s the topic I notice all the “wet sidewalks cause rain” stories with.
None of this has anything to with anything I’ve posted, unless you have a cite handy. I’ve been very specific about the incidents and reports on which my opinion is based. Yes, those reports in which multiple IDF members, and at least one US merc, report witnessing or being ordered to do atrocities are a HUGE part of my view.
That’s just one of many, many examples where what the media said, and not just one outlet but what the media concensus was, ended up being exceedingly, disastrously wrong in a way that continues to fuck with the public’s (already pretty shitty) understanding of the conflict to this day. I don’t know if that’s still a story you consider to be likely correct" - I’d really hope not, since most reputable sources did issue corrections, but of course, far fewer people ever see a correction in these scenarios, so I don’t take it for granted.
Unless you have information discrediting any of the incidents that I specifically called out, then it’s irrelevant to what I’ve said. I could similarly point out multiple times in which subsequent media reports demonstrated that the IDF’s initial reports after a particular incident were “exceedingly, disastrously wrong” that undoubtedly “fucked with the public’s understanding of the conflict”, but unless it’s a report that you’ve specifically relied upon, it would be irrelevant to this particular discussion.
I don’t know which specific example you’re talking about. Since you mentioned an American mercenary, is this regarding the GHF security forces? Or a different incident?
From what I’ve seen when soldiers spoke to the press, just because a soldier doesn’t like what they were ordered to do does not mean a war crime occurred. But I don’t know which supposed example you mean.
The US merc I’m talking about is Lt. Col Anthony Aguilar. The IDF members I’m referring to are the ones that told Haaretz they were ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near food distribution sites in Gaza, even when no threat was present.
I’m not making any determinations – just adding up all the facts. And adding them all up – these reports aren’t proof of atrocities, but a bunch of IDF members and one US merc reporting witnessing or being ordered to conduct atrocities counts as strong evidence of atrocities – leads me to conclude it’s much more likely than not that the IDF (and affiliated organizations) is overseeing atrocities, and attempting to hide evidence of such atrocities.
Anyways, I think you misidentify our core disagreement. Factual analysis of individual situations doesn’t matter in the least if this is your starting point:
Yes, if Palestinians have absolutely no agency and everything they do is Bibi’s fault, then I guess Israel is the root of all evil.
I just don’t agree with that premise. The Palestinian people have agency, like all other human beings on the planet, and they are responsible for the leaders they put into power and the actions of those leaders. Hamas aren’t space aliens; they ARE the Palestinian leadership.
If there’s no such thing as Palestinian Leadership because Bibi and we have to analyze the conflict through a lens where Israel has all the agency and Palestine has none, then of course we will come to different conclusions. If Hamas set off a nuke in Yel Aviv, or a scifi hyper bomb that set off a chain reaction and destroyed all life on Earth, it would still be Israel and Bibi’s fault.
Then you totally misinterpreted what I said. Right now, functionally speaking, the leadership of Palestinians is Netanyahu and the IDF – they control the WB and most of Gaza right now. Under invasion and occupation, Palestinians have virtually no functioning “leadership”.
This is completely disconnected from reality.
Palestinians have shitty leaders. They don’t have no leaders, nor can they claim to have no agency over their own actions or the actions taken by their leaders.
Which part? Do you assert that Israel does NOT control the WB and most of Gaza right now?
As for agency, Palestinians have it like anyone. Each Palestinian is responsible for their own actions. The vast majority haven’t done anything of any significance wrong towards Israel. Certainly all of the children and the vast majority of the civilians. I don’t know exactly how the statistics would break down, but I believe the majority, and maybe a large majority, of present-day Palestinians (including obviously all of them in the WB) had nothing to do with electing Hamas 20 years ago. Barring a misunderstanding of the facts, with that in mind, most Palestinians have no responsibility at all for the actions of Hamas.