But my point was, calling for one without some kind of assurances to both sides is just a waste of time. So we should be looking for ways to make those assurances and have them be believed. Thus my asking what mechanisms we had to “enforce” any assurances that a ceasefire will hold.
No, of course not. But killing journalists is kind of a big deal. Journalists keep us all honest. They post photos. They tell stories. Yes, they post propaganda, too. But you don’t know why they were killed because the IDF hasn’t felt the need to justify those deaths. And maybe Israel ought to feel a need to justify those deaths. Just as the US was pressured to admit that it shouldn’t have bombed a hospital in Afghanistan.
I certainly have no issue with an investigation into this or any other airstrike, as I’ve said before.
What I take issue with is the presumption of guilt.
…the only evidence that we have to work with are the testimony of the survivors. And while early on there were a few scattered reports of Hamas putting up roadblocks, I haven’t seen any reporting or testimony from the ground in Gaza that anyone fits even your definition or characterization of a “human shield” at all.
The evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that these people are being bombed for no good reason.
The IDF don’t have to provide justification if they don’t want too. But I’ll make judgements with the evidence that I have. And the evidence strongly supports the idea that the bombing is largely indiscriminate.
We don’t have to talk about them.
You tell me. If not them, who do you want to talk about?
For the purposes of this discussion, I’ll concede that the hospitals and the Jabalia had valid targets under them. That still leaves us with an estimated 4000 children dead. Is it your position that all of them were human shields, most of them, some of them, or we have no way of knowing?
…which are all relying on Hamas propaganda.
…this is incorrect. I’ve cited plenty of them above in this thread. They are all very well sourced and documented.
You’ve cited lots of things. You’ve also completely refused to defend them or argue for them when they have been questioned.
You still haven’t said whose territory you think Gaza is, either.
…ceasefires aren’t new things. There are no guarantees. This has always been the case. It isn’t a reason not to seek one.
You haven’t seen any people at the three hospitals mentioned or in Jabalia? Strange.
…I’m not allowed to defend some of those citations in this thread any more. And if you want to question any of the others, please let me know. But I’m not parroting Hamas propaganda. It’s a tired and boring accusation.
…that accounts for about 100 of the 4100 dead children. I’m asking about the other 4000.
Great, glad we agree.
…I’m not entirely sure what we are agreeing on, but my position is that we should be calling for an immediate ceasefire.
How many of those “children” were Hamas foot soldiers?
Stop moving the goal posts. I posted in reply to this:
Fine by me. Tell Hamas to stop shooting first.
…you tell me.
That’s appropriate, because I’m not sure what you think I’m saying that you’re arguing against.
…goalpost haven’t moved. For the purposes of this discussion I’ve conceded that the hospitals and Jabalia were valid targets, and as per your definition, makes any civilians killed in those locations “human shields.” There have been 500 killed at the hospitals, 50 at Jabalia, citations for those numbers all cited up thread. I estimated, conservatively, that out of those 550, maybe 100 of those numbers may have been children.
If we take those out of the equation, then that still leaves us with an estimated 4000 children dead. Is it your contention that all of those children were human shields, or some of those children, or we have no way of knowing?
Glad no need to started a hot war with Soviet Union, otherwise you can’t distinguish which child is not a Young Pioneers.
Membership was at 161,000 in the beginning of 1924, 2 million in 1926, 13.9 million in 1940, and 25 million in 1974.
tbh humanitarian doesn’t work wells for some reason after 19th century. And ‘human shield’ is the most euphemistic way of saying it, the most role of children is scout. It’s a mature tactics during WWII and Widely used in the Baath Parties system too.