Do you know if these were recent? I heard about spaces in the cellar, a bunker of sorts–but it was something built decades ago by Israel. Is this what you’re talking about, or something else?
This is a bit I’m a little unclear on. Forgive my ignorance: were there reports of IDF engaging Hamas soldiers who were inside the hospital during the engagement?
I’m not referring to the celler itself but to small rooms constructed inside that celler, including small rooms with ventilation and curtains on a blank wall (used for filming hostages without giving away your location), improvised toilets, etc. This was in a video released by the IDF and in some articles covering it, I can find it later if you aren’t sure which video I mean.
Yes, the IDF said that they engaged militants within the hospital complex on a few different occasions during the days leading up to the hospital’s capture.
…the hospital was sheltering thousands of people when it was taken over by the IDF. Some food and water was provided: but not enough for the thousands of people that were there. And no medical care.
And after about three days, most were just kicked out of the hospital. Including those that had just had surgery. Including those who were now amputees.
And the IDF don’t get credit for rescuing the babies. That goes to the doctors at Al-Shifa that kept them alive in the most dire of circumstances, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, WHO, and other UN agencies who facilitated the evacuation firstly down south, then to Egypt.
They facilitated it in coordination with the IDF. But you knew that.
…yes, they had to. Because the IDF are now in control of the hospital.
Which means that the IDF could have bypassed the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, WHO, and other UN agencies if they wanted to and done it all themselves. The IDF have access to doctors. They have access to nurses, and power, and incubators, and ambulances, and even planes. They don’t get credit for forcing a handful of Al-Shifa medical team to stay behind to maintain care for the children, or for making everybody else jump through hoops to facilitate their safe travel down south.
Why would they do that? Seriously? They were attacked by this country and they’re still at war. It’s not their job.
…because as the legally recognized occupying power they have obligations under the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war.
And I think under the conventions, facilitating transfer by the Red Cross was the correct thing to do.
But they also had obligations to do more than they did for the people in the hospital immediately after they took over the hospital, especially the premature children, who were largely just left in the care of the already over-worked skeleton crew of medical staff that remained behind.
I wasn’t aware Gaza surrendered.
…the ICJ, the UN General Assembly and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as the occupying power for the territories. This has been long-established, well prior to the current war.
Then they should have been able to walk up to the hospital with fuel and medical supplies. Why is it they couldn’t walk up to the hospital with fuel and medical supplies?
…who is “they?”
The IDF. You said they were an occupying force.
…I said they were legally regarded as the occupying power for the territories. I was quite specific in my wording.
And even if this wasn’t the case, the Geneva Conventions and the laws of war still apply here, and Israel would still be subject to essentially the same obligations. If you would prefer to imagine they are not the occupying power, that’s fine. The conventions still apply. Hospitals get special protection during war. There is a very high bar to removing those protections, and most international experts don’t think that the bar was reached here. And once they took over the hospital and any perceived threats had been eliminated, then the IDF are required to provide no “obstacle to the humanitarian activities” and that wounded and sick “shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.”
You were precise in how you’re dodging the situation. The IDF wasn’t occupying Gaza and couldn’t walk into the hospital. It took time and when they established control they did as you suggested. It took time because Hamas made it so.
…dodging what situation?
My position in this thread remains unchanged.
Hospitals have protected status under the conventions. They cannot be attacked or otherwise prevented from performing their medical functions.
The IDF claimed that Al-Shifa was a command and control bunker, and produced a slick video that showed what they thought was there, along with graphics on where the entry points would be.
But they never provided any evidence for this. And in the absence of evidence, most of the international legal community said this wouldn’t provide justification to remove the protected status of the hospitals.
This has been ignored by the IDF. And hospitals all over Gaza have been attacked since the start of this conflict. A hospital was attacked just last night, killing two Doctors without Borders doctors.
There are circumstances where the protected status might be lifted. Using the hospital as a firing base would be one of them. But “people running around the complex, shooting” would probably not be one of those. And it doesn’t matter if it did, because the IDF didn’t present that to the international community to justify lifting protected status at Al Shifa or any of the other hospitals.
And I don’t think there were any circumstances that would have allowed the siege. Not for six days. They could have vetted those supplies before allowing them to go in. They could have provided them themselves. They had other options here.
When they eventually established control, they didn’t provide any healthcare. They didn’t send in any medical teams. They allowed a very small amount of water and food in, not enough to feed the thousands of people that were sheltering there. Then they kicked almost everybody out.
I didn’t realize Israel evacuated over 100k from the Gaza border.
I assume they’ll have to rebuild that area. Israel is a small country and needs that land.
Link ‘I’ll never go back’: the Israelis displaced from homes by Hamas attack | Israel | The Guardian
That seems downright cheap to house 126,000 people (about $11/person/week…or about $575/year/person).
I must be missing something.
Maybe the government isn’t paying the hotels full price?
They could say the National emergency requires the housing. Patriotism is strong during a high stakes war.
Just spitballing
…FYI, 1.7 million people have been displaced across the Gaza Strip since 7 October. And 884,000 are in UNRWA shelters.
I find the word gymnastics that Banquet_Bear is undertaking to avoid admitting that Hamas was actively fighting the IDF at Al-Shifa, because then he would have to admit that the Geneva protections were nulled, to be hilarious.