…they didn’t need to. It was a hospital. It was the largest medical complex and central hospital in Gaza. It was the best place for the babies at the time. It’s why hospitals have protected status.
They had to evacuate the premature babies because the IDF cut off fuel supplies which meant they couldn’t use the incubators. And the important thing here is that the IDF continued to cut off fuel supplies even when they had full control of the hospital.
That’s really not relevant to any discussion being had here. Hamas has no regard for human life, including Palestinian life. I don’t think anyone is challenging that claim, not even Banquet_Bear.
It’s completely relevant to why they used the Hospital for their use.
Israel still doesn’t have full control of the Al Shifa complex, not if you include the tubnels underneath which the IDF is still gaining control of. And that’s the key point. Al Shifa is on the very front line of this war, as are the other hospitals which had Hamas tunnels underneath. They are not safe places, even when full of IDF soldiers (and filling an active hospital with soldiers is, when you think about it, basically how Hamas got these hospitals into this mess to begin with).
…this wasn’t the claim that I quoted. The quote was that they “only target Hamas.”
And if thats the case: where is the evidence for that?
The attack on Fakhoora: what was the target? How many were taken out? The carnage in the video was on the upper floors of the school, so what was the target?
How many Hamas soliders have been killed since the start of the war? How many bases? How many command and control bunkers? What is all of this death and destruction actually achieving?
Can you give me any numbers? Anything other than a nebulous “they are targeting Hamas?”
Because over 12,000 people are dead, we don’t know the exact amount any more, but it almost certainly is higher. 5000 of that are children. Over half of the entire population have been displaced. Half of the infrastructure destroyed.
All the hospitals in the north are essentially out of action. The ones in the south are on life support. What is the strategic goal of this? Why aren’t they getting the hospitals the resources they need to go back into action?
I’ve listed a handful of incidents. But over 5000 children don’t die from a handful of incidents. There are too many to list. If those children are dying because “they are on top of a military position” then the IDF are ignoring their responsibility for proportionality and precaution under international law. And if they died because “a strike went off target” or “because they had bad intelligence” then the IDF simply aren’t very good at their job. Are these the reasons why so many children are dead? Because all three of them are directly the fault of the IDF.
I’m not expecting to convince you of anything.
And I stand by that.
I’ve provided and cited extensive evidence to support the claims I’ve made in this thread, and quoted an expert in international law who also supports it. I can provide many more if you wish. And the rhetoric, both inside and outside of the Isreali government, makes the intentions of many clear.
The pattern we are seeing here isn’t one you would expect for taking out a terrorist organization. The siege. Shutting down all of the hospitals in the north. Driving hundreds of thousands of people down south where they continue to get bombed. Destroying 50% of civilian infrastructure. 1.6 million people displaced.
What do you think the point of these tactics are?
…they have control of it in the eyes of international law.
The thing is…no it wasn’t. It was a hospital. I won’t dispute that Hamas may or may not have been in and out of the hospital over the last month. I’ll concede that maybe during the siege of the hospital there may have been some Hamas fighters that fought around the complex, although none of those that took shelter at the hospital saw any evidence of that.
But treating the hospital as “the front line” when it has become very apparent that it wasn’t, is a major strategic and tactical blunder. Because now that you’ve taken Al Shifa, where is the front line now? What do we move onto this time? Is that why the IDF have been targeting schools this week?
It’s the exact pattern you’d expect for taking out a ruling government, and in case you forget aside from being a terrorist group Hamas is in charge in Gaza.
You’ve provided 0 support for your assertion that the IDF is at all interested in shutting down hospitals. The IDF is targeting Hamas positions under these hospitals, and it is impossible for them to operate safely while that’s going on. It was also impossible for them to operate safely while Hamas was actively using those positions, but since Hamas doesn’t value the lives of Palestinian civilians, that didn’t stop them.
You’re right, why doesn’t Israel do what Hamas does and force all these people to stay so they can die in the crossfire while the IDF and Hamas fight? The evil IDF refusing to grant all those people a martyr’s death.
To remove Hamas from their positions of incredible entrnachment while avoiding civilian casualties to the greatest extent possible. People are told to evacuate not out of some nefarious plan but because the best way to make sure people don’t die in the crossfire between the IDF and Hamas is to deny Hamas their human shields. Hospitals are not targeted because they are hospitals, but because Hamas has made them operational hubs (precisely because they knew that this would increase suffering and death when war with the IDF eventually came).
What do you think the point of these tactics is?
Are we ignoring the footage of tunnels I posted earlier today? The front line very clearly is still below Shifa, as the IDF continues heading into the tunnels. And at many other locations around Northern Gaza where the IDF has taken the territory above the entrance to a tunnel complex.
The front line very clearly is right there. What are you talking about?
“The hospital” consists of multiple buildings throughtout the complex, not just one of the buildings. Some of these buildings, all of which I consider part of “the hospital”, had militants in them when the IDF entered, or at a later point during IDF operations. Others did not. What does your statement mean?
…forcing 1.6 million people out of their homes is how you take out a “ruling government?” Denying food, water, shelter, electricity to over 2 million people is how you take out a ruling government? Killing 5000 children is how you take out a ruling government?
I don’t need too.
They’ve actually shut them down.
The IDF have obligations under international law here. I’ve cited them multiple times. They can’t just shut down all access to healthcare. Not to hundreds of thousands of people. Not to take out a network of empty tunnels.
The IDF are bombing them in the north. The IDF are bombing them in the south. They are bombing them in the hospitals, in the refugee camps, in the schools.
There is no escape from the bombs. There is no escape from the siege.
Well they are doing a real shit job at that aren’t they?
The hospitals weren’t “operational hubs”. There are no “human shields.” Not in the way you describe it. People aren’t dying because they are in “the crossfire.” They are dying because the IDF keep droping bombs on them.
I’ll defer to the UN Special Rapporteur Francesca Albanese. She isn’t a member of the boards, so feel free to accuse her of whatever you like.
…the tunnels built by Israel back in 1983? Or were you talking about something else?
And were there anyone in those tunnels? The frontline are empty tunnels built decades ago?
It means exactly what I said.
Collective punishment.
It also prevents him from speaking to any media about the actual conditions in the hospital and provoking questions to the narrative of the IDF and Israeli government.
Ah, so it’s guilt by association, then? Of course, Israeli also has a history of bulldozing the homes of people merely related to criminal Palestinian regardless of whether or not the extended family had anything to do with it, so why should I be surprised this instance of holding an entire family guilty without trial?
I have a sister I literally haven’t spoken to in over 15 years. I don’t even know where she’s living at the moment outside “this particular state” or how to contact her. If she were to commit a crime tomorrow should I, as her sister, be arrested, questioned about her activities and associates, and assumed to be complicit?
Merely being related to someone is not proof of either knowledge or approval of their activities. Or maybe it is for the Israeli government, maybe that allows them to sleep at night after bombing hospitals into ruin and bombing schools.
Have you been listening to the racists and lovers of genocide in the Israeli government these days? Yes, there is another possible motivation there and it is exceedingly ugly.
Genocide.
There are people in the Israeli government right now who we have on video saying exceedingly awful things. People like Itamar ben Gvir who have openly called to ethnically cleanse Israel of anyone Arab and was convicted in 2007 of racism by the Israeli courts, who lives in an illegal settlement on lands that belong to someone else. There’s Bezalel Smotrich, another government official breaking the law by living in an illegal settlement, who denies even the existence of Palestinians, an open promoter of apartheid in all aspects of life, and I’ll just point to the Wikipedia entry on this rather than make the mother of all run-on sentences. Oh, and Smotrich also more or less states that Reform Judaism is a “fake religion” and gets pissy about playing nice with others, his views on religious tolerance are summed up by this winner:
We [Orthodox Jews] all would want the State of Israel to be run according to the Torah and Jewish law, it’s just that we can’t because there are people who think differently from us, and we have to get along with them."
Poor baby, has to be insulated from anyone different from him. The point being, these are the people Netanyahu got into bed with to stay in power. The government of Israel has deep ties to genocidally minded racists and bigots and THAT is why so many people are so very deeply suspicious about the actions and motivations of the Israeli government by extension the IDF which is acting under their orders.
These facts are very uncomfortable for me as someone Jewish (although according to Smotrich I, as a product of a mixed marriage am some sort of abomination and not Jewish). I assume it is even more uncomfortable for someone Israeli. For all the evidence that Hamas is an evil organization intent on war and destruction it is also becoming very apparent that there is also deep rot and evil in the Israeli government.
The Geneva conventions mandate that a party in a conflict provide medical care to those in its control. That means taking care of any injuries a hostage has. Where else but a hospital would they take these people? Aside from anything else, taking the injured to a hospital is actually what they’re supposed to do, even though Hamas is not a signatory to any international agreement.
Providing video of hostages being taken to a hospital for care is proof that in that particular situation Hamas did the right and humane thing even if that’s not their normal pattern of action. It is not proof that the hospital is somehow in cahoots with Hamas.
Provided there is PROOF that those rooms are, indeed, that then that could be evidence for the argument Hamas was doing bad things there. Right now, not everyone is convinced of that.
So far what I’ve seen offered as “piles” of weapons would be dwarfed by the inventory of the typical gun store in my area. I can go down to my local Cabella’s or Bass Pro Shop and see much larger piles. Unlike Mr. Smotrich, who believes people not like himself should be barred from hospitals, the medical personal at Al-Shifa treated all comers. Under the provisions of the Geneva conventions weapons on injured combatants who are brought in for treatment are to be “secured”, which is usually meant to be put into storage somewhere. Which means a “pile” of enemy weapons in a storeroom. Which would not be inconsistent with what has been offered as “proof” of Al-Shifa being a Hamas “base”.
So there are two things that the Israeli government is holding up as “proof” of evil intent and siding with the enemy which actually could be people in the hospital doing exactly what they should - seeking medical care for prisoners/hostages, treating all injured without regard to which side they’re on, and securing any weapons that come in with them. Sitting here on the sidelines I can’t determine which case actually applies here but I sure as hell am not going to simply trust the word of people like Smotrich who would happily deny my very existence.
On top of which, as an occupying force, Israel has obligations to provide medical care in the territory it holds, or at the very least not interfere with medical personal providing medical care. Instead, the IDF has done the exact opposite by expelling everyone from these hospitals and shutting them down. Thereby condemning to death anyone unable to walk, anyone needing dialysis, and so forth. Those deaths are on Israel, not Hamas, because Israel directly brought about the conditions causing their deaths and did nothing to attempt to save them. That is, frankly, barbaric.
That is more or less the justification used by the US to kill a third of million Iraqi civilians. And around 70,000 Afghani civilians. Given the carnage I found the argument repugnant then. I find the similar claims by the IDF equally repugnant now.
The IDF is killing a grossly disproportionate number of civilians, and given that Hamas is continuing to lob rockets at Israel I question if this tactic is doing any good whatsoever. Maybe there’s some super-secret military intelligence that justifies everything but we haven’t seen it and, as I have already stated, I don’t trust the people currently running the Israeli government.
They don’t seem to care about civilian deaths. At all. It’s starting to look like they give zero care or thought about “collateral damage” in their pursuit of Hamas. Anything and any loss is acceptable to get even one Hamas guy.
The rest of the world might not agree. The Israeli government doesn’t seem to care about that. Indeed, there is mounting evidence that the Israeli government is using arrest to silence internal dissent when Jews in Israel protest their government’s actions. That’s not the action of a democracy.
Telling people to evacuate when there is nowhere safe to go is a sick joke. Telling hospital patients they have to evacuate on foot is even worse. Bed bound patients who simply could not do those things remained when the IDF took over and it is the obligation of Israel and the IDF to provide care for such people who, due to their injuries/illnesses, are not a threat to anyone.
I mean, holy crap, there is ample video footage of Ukrainians treating Russian prisoners, providing medical care, food, clothing, and shelter when they clearly hate those guys. They do it because it’s the right thing to do. This is not an impossible request.
Meanwhile, the IDF does nothing for patients too sick or injured to move and then blames Hamas for their deaths. This is how Israel becomes an international pariah state. That’s exactly what will happen if they keep doing these things.
I understand those are really uncomfortable statements for someone Israeli to hear. It’s uncomfortable for anyone Jewish to hear, because what Israel does affects even those of us who are not Israelis even if we are Jews (for now - if Smotrich gets his way I won’t be one).
You’re right, that is a possible motivation for this sort of action; but Banquet_Bear seems very keen on insisting that Israel is genociding and ethnic cleansing and collectively punishing without actually saying those words, which I find incredibly frustrating. If that’s what BB’s theory is, let them say so themselves.
As for my specific thoughts about the IDF’s actions, see below.
Is he being sentenced to serve time over his brother’s action? Has he been sentenced at all? He said “there is no Hamas activity at the hospital”; the IDF believes he is lying (with good reason IMHO but YMMV); so they want to talk to him.
I agree that if he does time over his brother’s actions that would be a very bad thing. But the IDF has known this whole time who is brother is and where his sympathies likely lie (based on FB posts praising his terrorist brother); that’s not what he is being arrested for.
If it turbed out that she was the head of a terrorist group that targets… let’s say Belgians, and then you were made head of a hospital in the Netherlands that mostly treated and employed Flemish people, and you got accused of allowing Flemish Separatists to operate and strike out of the hospital, your ties to a major Flemish Separatist would certainly be a red flag. You shouldn’t be arrested for having a terrorist brother, but I’d certainly question your statement that you’ve never seen Flemish nationalists at the hospital.
Here’s something that might come as a surprise for you (well, maybe not you, you are reading my posts. It might come as a surprise to other posters). I won’t waste half a second on defending Smotrich, Ben Gvir, or their ilk.
You’re right, they want to take Israel back to the bronze age and make us into a theocracy. They want to ruin our country, just as surely as it would be ruined if Hamas and ISIS and Hezbollah poured over our borders unopposed.
When it comes to the Palestinians,again, you are right. They support actions that would be genocidal if they were carried out. The least bad among them simply squat in settlements and make noncommittal noises about God clearing the land for them once enough faithful Jews live in Israel; the worst take a “God helps those who help themselves” approach and do whatever they can, including straight up terrorism, to drive away the Palestinians.
They would not be fans of you and they’d certainly not be fans of mine, since I am married to and have kids with a woman who isn’t Jewish. Plus I’m a Leftist, and they’ve said that us Leftists have forgotten what it means to be Jewish. Hell, they’re not even fans of Jewish people who are the right types of Jews and marry other Jews but are secular, their politicians asking us - “in what way are you Jewish?”.
You’re right! And for that reason there were massive waves of protest against Netanyahu and his far right regime. In fact, the reason that Netanyahu clang to these fools so tightly is that Israel was already roiling against him, to the point that he knew he would likely end up in prison. Tying his fate to Smotrich and Ben Gvir is the last act of a desperate politician.
Doing so has been disastrous for Israel, from the conflict over the Judicial Reforms proposed by Netanyahu (read: establishing a dictatorship to prevent himself from going to jail) to the deterioration of the situation in the West Bank.
But here is another fact. Ben Gvir, Smotrich, Otzma Yehudit, and the Religious Zionist Party - none of them are part of the War Cabinet, which is currently running the show. (Netanyahu is, unfortunately). Smotrich and Ben Gvir are part of the larger Security Cabinet, but that has much less influence over the course of the war, to the point that Ben Gvir has complained about being so cut off despite the security minister.
In fact, the reason plans for a unity government fell through is that centrists like Yair Lapid refused to form an emergency government that Ben Gvir and Smotrich would be a pary of. And that’s been viewed as a monumental failure on Netanyahu’s part, as has nearly every other part of the war.
These people don’t run the IDF, either. For the first time in history high ranking IDF members broke their tradition of political neutrality and condemned Netanyahu’s judicial reform bill. Huge numbers of Israeli revserve pilots refused to fly for Netanyahu’s dictatorship (for which Likudnik Nissim Vaturi said they should be executed). Remember, the main power block of these parties is composed of ulra-religious and fanatical people. Half of them don’t serve in the IDF because they go to Yeshiva instead, and the others get rejected by the IDF for being too fanatical (see: Ben Gvir).
Look, Israeli politics is complicated. I see a lot of takes that rely on American politics as a crutch, and while that’s understandable, I think it is a mistake.
The most prominent example of this is the idea that this war is good for or will even save Netanyahu somehow. That makes sense in the American context. But not in the Israeli one. This os a disaster for Netanyahu, one he will be held responsible for by history; his monumental failure to bring the country together to fight the war (which would require him to take responsibility, which I think he is physically incapable of doing) is also something that will not soon be forgotten.
Anoyher example is the view of the army as right winged and therefore aligned with the right-most forces in society. In the US, the Army is a very right wing force. That’s simply not true in Israel. Prominent leftists, like Yitzhak Rabin or Ehud Barack, had distinguished military careers before going into politics.
This is turning into a monster of a post. Here’s the TL,DR.
You are absolutely right about Ben Gvir and Smotrich, and it is for the reasons you point out that having them anywhere near Israeli politics is such a disaster. They are the metastisized form of the Settler movement which as we previously established is a cancer on Israeli society. The growth of their factions is absolutely exceedingly disturbing, and in peacetime it should be Israel’s number one priority to fight this internal extremism. (In war time this should be Israel’s number two priority; it’s still extremely important and is key to preventing the next war). But extremists like Ben Gvir or Smotrich do not have a material impact on the behavior of the IDF. Preventing them from ever getting their hands on the IDF is of paramount importance because you’re absolutely right about the evil and maniacal things they would do with it, and that’s why I’m a big supporter of the huge protests that have been rocking the nation over the months leading up to the war.
Alright, after all that… while I was writing that wall of text, 24 hostages have been brought out of Gaza and into Egypt where they were handed over to Red Cross doctors to look them over before they return to Israel.
There are 13 Israeli citizens being released as part of a deal with Israel, 10 Thai foreign workers released through a separate deal between Thailand and Hamas negotiated by Iran, and 1 Filipino foreign worker (I couldn’t find under what deal they were released at a quick glance).
Finally some good news!
I devoutly hope you are right. But from over here, watching Israel shut down hospitals and destroy half of Gaza, i have to wonder who is really in charge, and what their goals are.
They want to get into tunnels under the hospital? Okay. How does shutting down the whole hospital even help that cause?
I’m a Jew. Even by ultra-Orthodox standards, I’m a Jew. I grew up in a very pro-Israel environment. But like @Broomstick , I’m getting pretty uncomfortable.
Yes, that’s excellent news! I’m glad to hear it’s happened. I hope for more such news in coming days. 
If the IDF sits inside an active hospital and does battle with Hamas forces underneath, they put the civilians at risk when Hamas fights back. Just like Hamas does when they fight the IDF out of a hospital.
Since the IDF can’t move the entrance to the tunnels, the field of battle is set. All they can do is ensure civilians aren’t in the way.
The war isn’t over in northern Gaza just because the IDF took over the surface in a given region (and note, much of Northern Gaza, including the city itself, is still not under IDF control as of the ceasefire). There are many battles ahead, and the IDF cannot keep these hospitals safe.
Let’s say the IDF decides to keep Al Shifa operational. They bring in troops and fortify the buildings around the hospital, and they build fortified positions on top of the tunnel entrances. Hamas then attacks the hospital, killing many civilians, and explains that the IDF was using them as human shields. Isn’t that exactly what Hamas does?
So maybe instead the IDF fights and defeats Hamas but then abandons the hospital. Well, what stops Hamas from moving right back in and attacking the IDF again, necessitating a response that will again kill civilians?
Here is a map showing areas under IDF control, according to one of these open source intelligence guys on Twitter who has been pretty reliable during the Ukraine war.
Note that Al Shifa is just a couple blocks from areas uncontrolled by Israel; the Indonesian Hospital is on the front lines; Jabalia is completely away from IDF controlled territory.
How on Earth is Israel meant to keep civilians safe at a location like that? Do you think the IDF sets up field hospitals for their own troops in those kinds of locations?
The Israeli hostages are back in Israel. Three women with children and the rest are elderly women (one is the grandma of one of the kids…)
Perhaps by evacuating in an orderly fashion, using Israeli ambulances, to a hospital under Israeli control.
Many hospitalized people become unsafe when a hospital loses power. People in intensive care are likely to die within minutes of a hospital losing power. My guess is those people would have been a great deal safer with soldiers shooting outside the building, or even in the hallways, than they were the way things played out.