We had design and production facilities in Israel. These were guys who lived there.
This American Jew questions that presumption. Over my lifetime Israel has fought multiple wars, lives under siege, and is surrounded by enemies that regularly harass and attack. I’ve had Israelis tell me they’re working to make Israel a strong refuge in case I need it - and I do appreciate the sentiment, it’s nice to know someone would be willing to take me in if that was necessary - but we’re talking about a country where not only are bomb shelters and safe rooms a more or less mandatory requirement of new home construction but those get used on a regular basis.
Honestly, at this point I think it more likely the US will be giving refuge to Israelis than vice versa. (Also hoping I’m entirely wrong on that point)
I am, of course, aware that things are not entirely safe in the US, either, between antisemitism and just random gun violence, but I’m not having rockets rain down on my head or worried about, say, Canada over-running the place and pushing me into the sea.
Or maybe it’s because I come from a family that was never pro-Zionist. Not everyone thought founding modern Israel was a good idea, for various reasons.
Don’t get me wrong - I’d prefer that there be no need for a “Holocaust refuge” for anyone anywhere. But right now there are a lot of places I’d prefer to move before I would move to Israel. I realize my point of view is a minority one among American Jews but it does exist.
The beautiful thing about Israel is that should the pogroms come to America even Jewish people with your attitude will be welcome 
Of course, that’s ridiculous - there’s certainly no Nazism or antisemitism here in the States.
An unrelated image I felt like sharing:
Anyways, American Jews aren’t the only ones worth worrying about. I’ll note that the US has certainly not seen fit to let in the Beta Israel, for example. And I don’t see anyone lining up to help the Kurds, or the Uyghurs.
By you, yes. By the likes of Ben-Gvir, no. Perhaps no one has ever questioned you being a Jew. That question has all too often been a feature of my life. I have had had the negative of dealing with antisemitism without the benefit of a truly secure place in the Jewish community at large.
Perhaps that is also part of my unease, the worry that there would be no safe refuge for me after all.
Agreed that the US is far from perfect. If I had not been born here I probably would never have been let in. But this is where I find myself, with little prospect of ever being allowed to immigrate anywhere else.
If I ran the world things would be very different but so far nobody has let me be a local dog-catcher, much less a world leader.
Trust me, Ben Gvir is no fan of mine, either. My wife is not Jewish which in his eyes likely makes me an apostate.
But Ben Gvir and Religious Zionism are not what Israel is about. If it was up to the Ben Gvirs of the world, the Jewish people would never have gotten their own nation; we would still be waiting for the Messiah to return and grant us the land.
No, it was secular Jews (with a strong undercurrent of socialism) who were the engine behind the Zionist project, and the Israeli Left is their successor, not Smotrich and his perversion of Zionist ideals.
BTW I have met Israelis of various non-Jewish religions and ethnicities who—well, I did not straight-out ask them how they feel about “Jewish state” kind of talk, but Israel being over 70% Jewish definitely puts them in the minority, and how would you like it if as a minority some people called you, and for many practical purposes you actually were, a second-class citizen, or not a real American [substitute wherever you hail from]? Not to mention whatever right-wing nutjobs and/or Nazis may spew against Arabs, Christians, Muslims, or whomever it is convenient to demonize.
Not being Jewish doesn’t make you a second class citizen. Many European countries have official religions, as do all the Arabic countries. Some of those countries discriminate against people who don’t follow the state religion while others do not.
Where there are two of us, there are three opinions.
A very pessimistic, but IMO well argued, view of the overall conflict: Israel Has Already Lost - by John Ganz - Unpopular Front
I hope it’s not true, but I share the opinion that this Israeli government is likely incapable of accomplishing any improvement of Israeli security - even the main goal of destroying Hamas.
Two gunmen from the West Bank who have been claimed by Hamas opened fire on a crowd in Jerusalem killing 3 people. One of the victims was a pregnant woman.
Despite this it sounds like the deal will continue, with 10 more hostages released today.
Meanwhile, despite the war continuing, I did see that the courts are planning to resume normal operations in the next few days - including on Netanyahu’s case.
I share your disdain for the current government, but not the author’s apparent disdain for the IDF.
Hamas has to be removed by force whether we have Likud or Labor in power. That much is clear, and the government has only a limited capacity to screw that up, since it’s a military operation, not a political one.
This government isn’t going to be able to do the job of rebuilding Gaza and ensuring someone stable comes to power then, but by the time we are worrying about that I highly doubt that this government will still be in power.
Haven’t you lost some faith in the IDF? ISTM that they were wholly unready for the October 7th attacks. And this isn’t about intentions - I think there’s some incompetence there. Not that I’m an expert, but in my understanding of events like these, it’s never just a single failure - there had to be multiple failures, all at the same time, for the unreadiness the IDF demonstrated (in anticipating, defending, and reacting to the attacks).
And I don’t think Israel does or should treat global opinion as a primary concern here. Global sympathy is nice - that and $5 will get you a sandwich at Subway. But global sympathy doesn’t help when you are being murdered (especially since it never seems to extend so far as allowing the people you have sympathy for into your country); military force does.
Israel exists precisely so that the Jewish people’s continued existence does not depend on global sympathy.
Forget sympathy. What about global alliances? Those depend in part on the attitudes of the public of various countries. I don’t think Israel is in a position to go it completely alone in the world–no country is. The more that the public of various democracies looks at Israel and thinks, “Now there’s a country that upholds the ideals of human rights and democracy,” the stronger those alliances will be.
Set sympathy aside.
Was that ordered as a test to see how much Israel will put up with to continue hostage exchanges, or were the killers bored and full of hate?
There are a lot of reasons why the IDF failed on Oct 7, and we have barely begun the process of properly reckoning with the causes that led to that failure. That’s part of why I think destroying Hamas is necessary. In 2014, I opposed going into Gaza, because of a few reasons:
- the cost in both Palestinian civilian and IDF troop lives would be far too high
- the threat posed by Hamas seemed constrained to lobbing rockets that would mostly be shot down by Iron Dome
- it seemed reasonable to think that if Hamas’ attacks proved ineffective and costly then eventually Hamas would mellow out and negotiate
Oct 7 obviously shattered #3, but it also shattered #2. I opposed invading Gaza so long as I thought that Hamas couldn’t pose a real threat to Israeli civilians thanks to the IDF; that is the context in which I lost faith in the IDF, not in their ability to carry out military operations against an opponent in an active war.
I agree, and the IDF’s readiness will need to be thoroughly evaluated and overhauled.
Somewhere in my reading this morning I ran across a statement by the IDF that Hamas tunnels are very sophisticated - well engineered and constructed. So, Hamas headquarters is not likely to be a dirt hovel beneath the central hospital. It is more likely to be a modern facility whose placement is well calculated to avoid detection. Definitely not identifiable with iconic surface features that advertise - bomb here. It’s probably far to the south, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of it is under the Israeli side of the border.
Hamas offered early on to exchange civilian hostages for Israeli held Palestinian civilians. Israel refused and instead murdered 10000 or so Palestinian civilians and relocated a large part of the population to the south of Gaza, then took the Hamas deal anyway.
Even with massive effort the IDF has not reduced Hamas’ ability to wage war or it’s will to win. As LHD pointed out above, Hamas has brought some of the world to it’s side.
I suspect the ability to combat Hamas exists within the IDF Officer Corps but the upper echelon is still busy fighting WW2. A current snap shot shows Hamas as winning.
Let me start by saying, I know you know this, and it is reflected in many of the posts you have made here, but at some point, if Israel is putting all of its eggs in the military force basket it not only loses global sympathy, but it also begins to gain global opposition and your opponent starts to get the sympathy. We are seeing that now.
I am bemused when certain Israelis/pro-Israel folks spew the ultra-violent talking point of the day, and a few hours later are wondering where all of these pro-Palestinian rumblings are coming from.
When did this happen?
It didn’t.