Discworld Latecomers Ongoing Discussion (open spoilers)

Well, here’s a post he made to the alt.fan.harry-potter newsgroup in 2005 after a BBC article. Most relevant quote, which matches my take (my emphasis):

But I will pick up on the comments about Tiffany Aching and ‘the school for witches’. As he Discworld take on Witch v. Wizard magic has been in place for a very long time. Tiffany’s daydream of a magical school’ *could *be Hogwarts --or Unseen University or Miss Cackle’s Academy or any fantasy school or all or none. It might even be five seconds of Tiffany’s wishful thinking. So what? Granny Weatherwax’s often voiced distrust of books, magical tools goes all the way back to ‘Equal Rites’ in 1987. Why should she suddenly be talking about another author’s creations?

Carpe Jugulum

My final main witches book, though I will now re-read the Tiffany books I had read(the first two).

This book had amazing theological discussions, but was only an OK book for me. I guess I should say it is an OK Discworld-book, which means it is still really good. Mightily Oats is a great character and of all characters in any Discworld book, he really is like me.

This book contains my favorite single passage so far. It’s Mightily Oats’ thoughts about God, belief, and whether any of it is true or not.

This passage is like Terry Pratchett read my mind and then wrote it out. I’ll spoiler-box it since I am pushing the edge of quote-length.

They had been warned about it.

Don’t expect it, they’d said. It doesn’t happen to anyone except the prophets. Om doesn’t work like that. Om works from inside. —but he’d hoped that, just once, that Om would make himself known in some obvious and unequivocal way that couldn’t be mistaken for wind or a guilty conscience. Just once, he’d like the clouds to part for the space of ten seconds and a voice to cry out, “YES, MIGHTILY-PRAISEWORTHY-ARE-YE-WHO-EXALTETH-OM OATS! IT’S ALL COMPLETELY TRUE! INCIDENTALLY, THAT WAS A VERY THOUGHTFUL PAPER YOU WROTE ON THE CRISIS OF RELIGION IN A PLURALISTIC SOCIETY!”

It wasn’t that he’d lacked faith. But faith wasn’t enough. He’d wanted knowledge. Right now he’d settle for a reliable manual of vampire disposal. He stood up. Behind him, unheeded, the terrible camp bed sprang shut. He’d found knowledge, and knowledge hadn’t helped. Had not Jotto caused the Leviathan of Terror to throw itself onto the land and the seas to turn red with blood? Had not Orda, strong in his faith, caused a sudden famine throughout the land of Smale? They certainly had. He believed it utterly. But a part of him also couldn’t forget reading about the tiny little creatures that caused the rare red tides off the coast of Urt and the effect this apparently had on local sea life, and about the odd wind cycle that sometimes kept rain clouds away from Smale for years at a time. This had been… worrying.

Because he was, he knew, in two minds about everything. At one point he’d considered asking to be exorcised but had drawn back from this because the Church traditionally used fairly terminal methods for this and in any case serious men who seldom smiled would not be amused to hear that the invasive spirit he wanted exorcised was his own.

He called the voices the Good Oats and the Bad Oats. The trouble was, each of them agreed with the terminology but applied it in different ways. Even when he was small there’d been a part of him that thought the temple was a silly boring place, and tried to make him laugh when he was supposed to be listening to sermons. It had grown up with him. It was the Oats that read avidly and always remembered those passages which cast doubt on the literal truth of the Book of Om— and nudged him and said, if this isn’t true, what can you believe?

And the other half of him would say: there must be other kinds of truth.

And he’d reply: other kinds than the kind that is actually true, you mean?

And he’d say: define actually!

And he’d shout: well, actually Omnians would have tortured you to death, not long ago, for even thinking like this. Remember that? Remember how many died for using the brain which, you seem to think, their god gave them? What kind of truth excuses all that pain? He’d never quite worked out how to put the answer into words. And then the headaches would start, and the sleepless nights. The Church schismed all the time these days, and this was surely the ultimate one, starting a war inside one’s head. To think he’d been sent here for his health, because Brother Melchio had got worried about his shaky hands and the way he talked to himself!

He did not gird his loins, because he wasn’t certain how you did that and had never dared ask, but he adjusted his hat and stepped out into the wild night under the thick, uncommunicative clouds.

I made a google document of it so I can read it over and over. I love it so much, I have no words.

Nice. My favourite Pratchett passage remains the discussion of the nature of fantasy and big and little lies, between Susan and Death, in Hogfather

My favorite passage is when Tiffany Aching threw an abusive father down a flight of stairs… which says a LOT more about me than about Discworld or Pratchett. :smiley:

The passage I quote most frequently is “Sam Vimes’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness.” It’s part of my lecture notes for high school Economics.

Same here.

I ultimately chose a passage from Good Omens to use as a sig, but I waffled between that and Death’s comment in Hogfather about being the place where the rising ape meets the falling angel. Pratchett’s compassionate humanism did much to shape my own view of ethics and morality.

So, I finally reread Small Gods, which was one of the first Discworld books I ever read almost twenty years ago and one of the only ones I’d never reread. I’d actually never owned it until recently.

And…I’m the outlier. I don’t love it. I get WHY people love it, but I don’t. The moments of brilliance are absolutely there, and some of the narrative turns towards the end are engaging, but something just doesn’t hold together for me.

Brutha never feels like a real character; he’s described as a near-comical simpleton at the outset but portrayed more as average and over-earnest. His eidetic memory is a weird choice. And his eventual turn towards wise competence doesn’t really feel earned to me.

It’s also not very funny. I don’t mind Discworld getting serious, but I think this was specifically a topic which could use more levity.

It’s certainly not a bad book, but I’m not sure it even makes my personal top ten. I guess I’ve realized that what I really love about Pratchett was his skill at developing extremely vivid characters and building a really expansive and “believable” world, and I don’t think Small Gods really managed that.

I recommend Going Postal. It’s pretty good, and there’s even a BBC mini-series starring Richard Coyle and David Suchet which is also excellent.

I think Discworld was harmed by the first few installments being light parody: That set the expectation that Pratchett was writing comedy. There is a lot of humor in the books, but it’s not the point of them.

And my favorite passage is Granny Weatherwax playing cards with DEATH, but that can’t really be condensed down to a sig (at least, not without losing important context).

I recommend this podcast where Brandon Sanderson discusses Discworld. I literally made sure I read The Truth next so I could listen to this podcast fully spoiled and ready to go.

He talks about what makes Discworld work as a series and your point is one of his. When you read many funny books, the joke is the point. With Terry Pratchett’s books, the joke is not the point. They make you laugh, sometimes really often, but the books have strong stories and characters that stand on their own and the jokes just make the experience more enjoyable.

It’s a great listen as a whole if you want to hear another author discuss The Truth and discworld in general. Sanderson obviously loves the series.

Moving Pictures

Not my favorite book and one of the lesser Discworld books so far. I have very little to say about it other than, “Yep, that happened.” I didn’t hate it, but it would not draw me in if I were not already planning to read all of them.

Is this book a favorite of anyone? I love stand-alones, but this was just about the perfect example of a generic Discworld book.

It does have the introductions of a few recurring characters.

But yeah, pretty generic, and with the big reset button at the end common to several early books.

Moving Pictures is like the cotton candy of Discworld (should I say candyfloss?). Pleasant enough and inoffensive, but not a meal. I think it’s probably the last one before Pratchett really found the defining tones and voices of the best Discworld. It’s the last pre-greatness book.

Moving Pictures is, however, where Pratchett started exploring themes that he used much more effectively in Reaper Man and Soul Music, so you can see some groundwork being laid.

Here is my ranking of the 26 Discworld books I have now read, from best to worst.

Small Gods
The Truth
Lords and Ladies
Night Watch
Reaper Man
Feet of Clay
Men at Arms
Maskerade
Carpe Jugulum
Soul Music
Fifth Elephant
Jingo
Guards! Guards!
Interesting Times
Mort
Wee Free Men
Unseen Academicals
Moving Pictures
A Hat Full of Sky
Witches Abroad
Wyrd Sisters
Sourcery
Colour of Magic
The Light Fantastic
Equal Rites
Faust Eric

For future reference, you can do the strikethrough here:
[DEL]Faust[/DEL] Eric

You ranked Unseen Academicals ahead of A Hat Full Of Sky? Wow. Okay, I mean, YMMV and all, but I wonder how many other Pratchett fans would agree? Unseen, in my opinion, could have used an editor with a sharper red pencil; it was a little too verbose, a little too tell-rather-than-show, for me. This was where you realized that Terry was dictating, rather than writing.

Whereas the Tiffany Aching series I put with Night Watch as the high points of Pratchett’s corpus; these are comic novels about serious ideas, and are the works that rank Pratchett among modern British writers like Salman Rushdie, A.S. Byatt, and Margaret Atwood.

Just my opinion, of course, and in any case, I’m delighted that you’ve discovered the Discworld. Your thread has inspired me to go back and re-read the novels, so I’d owe you a beer, if we ever met IRL.

Unseen Academicals isn’t dead last? Your list is suspect.

Yes, for me UA is in very last place.

I also think this is why Rincewind is not often beloved by the “serious” Discworld readers, that he’s most strongly associated with the early parodic works, and somehow isn’t seen as “fitting in” with the more “literary” later works.

To which I say bollocks. Rincewind remains a great literary character even if you try and strip the funny away. He’s the “only sane man in the room” archetype.