Discworld Reading Club 5: Sourcery

Actually, that hits upon one thing I liked about this book, too. Rincewind seems to have grown a bit in this one, from where he was in “Light Fantastic”. However, I have not read any of the later Rincewind books yet for comparison. If, as you say, his character development stops here, then I’m probably going to be disappointed in the later ones.

I dunno, I’d attribute that more to Terry Pratchett (at the time) still trying to settle where he wanted to go with the Discworld series. I mean, we still had the “Unseen University as a hotbed of treacherous faculty” meme, which only got punted later down the road; I suspect the overuse of the Dungeon Dimensions in the earlier novels was because he wasn’t confident yet that he could do stories without them as a world-destroying menace.

And the Luggage is supposed to be badass. It’s part of the appeal. :slight_smile:

To paraphrase from The Discworld Portfolio: “Rincewind is a coward, and he isn’t ashamed to say it. He’d rather people say ‘Rincewind is a coward’ than ‘Rincewind was noble and brave until he got bitten in two.’”

The Portfolio also notes that Terry would rather not have anything more to do with Rincewind either, but there’s too much fan insistence for the lovable schmuck that keeps him from going away entirely.

And I’ll go on the record and say I like Rincewind as the ultimate do-nothing coward. Especially given all the crazy hijinks he’s been put through, the notion that he wants to do nothing but stay in his room cataloging unintersting rocks (and peeling the occassional banana) makes perfect sense to me.

Just read this last night, actually. Fun book, but definitely missing something without the art.

I don’t object to the Rincewind-as-coward idea. In fact I liked it. It was refreshing to see a hero who was genuinely reluctant. There have been plenty of heroes who have been reluctant in the initial stages and then went on to greatness in the tradition of Moses or Bilbo. Rincewind isn’t one of those though, he’s the only hero I know who is reluctant all the way through an adventure, and is never sorry to see the end and really does want to get back to looking at uninteresting rocks… It’s an intriguing concept, and Pratchett is the only writer I know who could have pulled it off.
Which makes the treatment of Rincewind all the more disappointing. He isn’t just cowardly, he is bland and two-dimensional. And because Pratchett’s characters are imbued with so much personality it sticks out like dog’s balls in rice pudding. Rincewind is even more two dimensional than ancilliary characters like Foul Ole Ron, Harry King or Albert Malich. He doesn’t even measure up to Pratchett’s lowest standard of characterisation, and as a result he ends up being more of a catalyst for events than an actual character. Any Rincewind book has to become “Rincewind Unbound” or “Rincey Cuts Loose” because his character lacks the depth to drive an actual story, and for some reason Pratchett refuses to allow the character to grow.
Cowardice is all well and good as an aspect of a character, but with R it is the entire character. There is nothing else. Rincewind doesn’t want to marry, but he doesn’t object to marriage. Rincewind isn’t celibate, yet he never even makes an effort to find sex. Rincewind isn’t averse to making money, but he has no desire to make money. He doesn’t object to learning, but he won’t work to learn. He doesn’t object to politics, but he holds no views on what political system is best or worst. He doesn’t have any personality flaw that hinders friendship, but never forms strong bonds And so on. Rincewind is a lazy human being with no ambition anywhere. He doesn’t just lack a desire for excitement, he lacks all desires, at leats to the extent that he will even lift a finger to act on them.

On every issue that affects humans he has no standing. He would apparently tolerate Hitler as Patrician, or Stalin, or the Dalai Lama, he really wouldn’t care. He would marry if it were convenient, or make friend, but then walk off at a moments notice with no regrets. Rincewind comes across as being severely autistic, with no real interest in people or events aside form his specialty area of languages, yet at the same time he is written as having no particular problems dealing with and even befriending people.

Compare that to Carrot, Ridcully, or Magrat. We can take a guess at how those people feel about almost any social issue you care to mention, whether sexual equality or money or politics or whatever. And of course when we get to other major characters in Rincewind’s own league, like Vimes or Granny Weatherwax or Susan there feelings on those issues have been fleshed out, complete with their reasons for those feelings. But Rincewind remains a cardboard cutout, with no views on anything aside from avoiding danger.

And as I have said, he is the only Pratchett character that has never grown. Vimes has changed from desparing drunkard Captain to highly effective diplomat, Granny Weatherwax has changed from slightly insecure hedge witch to supremely self-confident powerhouse. Susan has gone from naive schoolgirl to confident young woman. And all those characters changed smoothly and naturally as a real person would, They grew. Meanwhile Rincewind in “Last Hero” is exactly the same Rincewind we saw in “Colour of Magic” 20 years ago. Despite all his experiences and travels he hasn’t changed at all in outlook, inventory, personality or behavior.
And we’ve seen it all in those 20 years. There’s no point shoving him into outer space or psuedo-Australia unless he is going to get something out of it. I readpRatchett for wit, insight and characterization. A story with a changeless hero has none of that and is just a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Bland, and IMO a disappointing misuse of what could have been a great and genuinely unique character.

Well, I’ll jump in and say I like Rincewind, just the way he is.

I like the coward of a thousand retreating backs. I like the idea of it. Not to say I don’t love Vimes & Carrot (vying for my favorite characters) but Rincewind is refreshing.

Because he’s learned, through long and painful experiences, that when he exerts himself he ends up with far more excitement than he wants. His reluctance to get involved makes sense in that context.

Gotta disagree here – Rincewind does care, but concern alone is usually not enough motivation for him to get moving. He needs an external force (usually a threat) before he becomes involved; without that, he may be sympathetic or regretful, but those feelings are often superceded by his desire to not get involved.

In the end, Rincewind’s character is as the ultimate reluctant non-hero. It’s not a glamorous characterization, but there it is. And while it may be unsatisfying from a narrative POV, it’s not unrealistic – there are plenty of examples of real people with defective personalities who never strive to improve themselves.

I’m posting a year late but I’ve only just found these threads and wanted to contribute to this one as Sorcery is my fave discworld book. Given the amount of invective thrown against it and Rincewind (who happens to be my fave character as well) I’m guessing I’m in a minority. I agree that as characters go he’s fairly two-dimensional, but I don’t think he’s completely devoid of motivation, just that his desires are to be bored and unstimulated (and given that we’re choosing to pick up fantasy books, that kind of mind just isn’t one we’re going to be able to relate very well to). I think he does some pretty worthwhile stuff in Interesting Times, although I could happily have the one where he goes to XXXX erased from the library permanently (what was TP thinking when he wrote that crap?).

I actually spent some time thinking about this and wondering if it’s me liking the book more than it deserved to be or the rest of you disliking it too much. I think one factor that should be counted is that I started reading TP quite young, I picked up TCOM at age 9 and kept going after that. Hence I also read Sorcery quite young (I can’t have been older than 10) and I think that possibly the childhood effect may have made me like it more than I would have if I’d read it for the first time now.

I’ve re-read it a few times and still liked it, but ultimately I prefered a lot of TP’s earlier work and am finding that only about one in three of his current mass-produced efforts are actually worth picking up. Again there is a lot of antipathy towards his first eight or so books (ooooh, there’s that number!) as somehow “inferior efforts” or him finding his author feet (or hat). I don’t know, it’s very hard for me to be objective about this but it appears that the weight of opinion is against me, so I’m guessing that it’s nostalgia (or more accurately lack of sufficient experience to inform me otherwise) propping up by love of his earlier works.

Still, I love Sourcery and Rincewind and would prefer to read this again than a lot of the later stuff with Vimes in (who I can’t stand and will write lots about why in a more relevant thread).

Hopefully someone will see this thread has been bumped and will take the time to comment on my thinking.

We haven’t gotten up to The Last Continent yet (or have we?), but I find it odd that a die-hard Rincewind fan would not enjoy TLC, as it’s a terrific showcase for Rincewind’s particular brand of non-activism cowardic heroism (even more than The Last Hero, but now I’m really stepping ahead of myself…).

Oooh, that ought to make for some fun exchanges with the members of the Sam-Vimes-For-Life-Fan-Club contingent… :wink:

I say bring it on! I’d never get tired of slapping Vimes around his oh-so-wise-yet-street-smart smug face.