“Enthusiasm”?
ENTHUSIASM???
Jesus.
The massacre of the family wasn’t exactly legal, from what I understand. While most people accepted that Nicholas had been killed, the Bolsheviks, for YEARS put out the story that the women and female servants had been sent away. Because they knew that they had no legal right to kill the girls. Alexei, MAYBE, although that would probably have gotten them in trouble too. But OTMA? I don’t think so.
Trotsky at least had a better idea, I’ll say that-he wanted to put Nicholas on trial.
BTW, if anyone wants, I’m starting my Romanov site:
The Tsar’s Village. All I have up are the photo albums and my sources, but I do plan on some links and bios in the near future. IN the meantime, http://www.naotmaa.com a site run by my friend, Alia, as well as my friend Kali’s [http://www.strangegirl.org/mashka/index.html"]Mashka’s](
[url) Photographic Scrapbook.
And of course, http://www.alexanderpalace.org
And if you’re wondering about the legality of my photos, let me assure you that the pictures are old enough to be considered public domain.
(Never mind the Pop ups-Crosswinds has them all over the place)
<hijack>
With all due respect, Sam, I’m sick of hearing that horseshit from people who should know better. Communism, in theory, strives for a stateless society.
Theories can strive for anything, results are what we’re talking about.
I will split all the hairs I want, thank you very much.
Yes, Communism is very misunderstood in my opinion. A lot of Communist leaders were very evil, killing innocent people and all. But I imagine a lot of older Japenese people think the US is kinda evil for killing innocent people and all.
Anyway, maybe I come off sounding like a dumb ass, but I dont believe that Communism is any more or less evil than Capitalism.
I think Communism is a better theory than Capitalism.
Just my opinion, please dont insult it.
And I thought the OP was about V. I. Lenin, not Communist ideology. Which is why I called it a hijack.
Well, let’s say the BOLSHEVISM, or Bolshevik communism is what we’re talking about.
And I don’t think Marxism would work, because it’s too narrow, ignores human nature and too many of the people, ie peasants.
Guin: Thanks. I’m a dyed in the wool pinko, and I can’t stand the Leninists, myself. Especially those shits in the ISO.
Enthusiasm is one of those morally neutral terms, and I don’t know why it offends you so much. Guinistasia is probably right, though. In all likeliness, it was to get rid of witnesses.
Guin, OTMA were dangerous for the same reason that Nicholas and Alexis were. There hadn’t been a ruling Tsarina in a while, but that doesn’t mean that if they had lived, somebody wouldn’t have said “Let’s put one of them on the throne”, or when they had children, those children could be claimants. I’m not denying that revenge played a role, but it’s more that, as long as the Romanovs lived, there would be people who saw them as the legitimate rulers of Russia.
There was also a special urgentcy, because White troops were near Ekatrinburg, and there was the perception that the Whites would free the Romanovs.
Maybe so, but that’s not justification.
Yep, another pinko liberal leftist Bitch here, who doesn’t like the Leninists or the Marxists, for that matter.
Article 58 of the 1934 Criminal Code of the RFSFR seems pretty enthusiastic about “the state”, to the point of making “betrayal of state secrets” (58-1a), the “undermining of state production” or “impeding the activity” of “state institutions and enterprises” (58-70), and “weakening the authority of the government and functioning of the state apparatus…in especially aggravating circumstances” (58-14) all punishable by “the supreme measure of social defense–shooting”. Throw in the various fancy Bolshevik synonyms for “the state” (“the motherland”, “Soviet authority”, “the power of worker-peasant councils or of their chosen (according to the Constitution of the USSR and constitutions of union republics) worker-peasant government of the USSR”) and the whole thing is one long paean to state power. By contrast, murder, if committed by a civilian, gets a maximum penalty of ten years imprisonment. (The penalty for the murder of a government official was, of course, death.)
Of course, Soviet Communism claimed to its dying day to be committed to an eventual stateless society. But until this theoretical Bolshevik Millennium, “state power” and “state security” were given quite an exalted position.
No, but it does explain it, and if I were in the Bolshevik’s position at the time, I can’t promise I wouldn’t have ordered it. Of course, why they put him in Ekatrinburg, I’ll never know…there probably were safer places to put him, so that the Bolsheviks would have had the luxury of time, and could have done more than a summary execution.
I hear you ME.
And while we’re wishing…I’d like a pony.
It’s interesting, though, how our public schools (or at least all of the public schools I went to), when they bother to mention Lenin at all, never cast him in anywhere near the light he deserves. He’s never shown as equivalent to Hitler, or even to Stalin or Pol Pot (to use one more modern example). I blame the public schools for ignoring one of the most important evil men ever, glossing over his crimes and even glossing over Stalin’s crimes mainly by paying more attention to what the Germans were doing. My teachers went into detail about what happened to the Holocaust victims (invariably lumped together as Jews, implicitly ignoring everyone else who died in German camps) but never talked about the Soviet crimes against humanity. Well, maybe future generations will learn about the World War (1914-1945), with equal time given to the crimes perpetrated by people in every area. (Germany, USSR, China, Japan, Italy, etc.) After all, history tends to get compressed in hindsight.
And I’m who ignore a century’s experience with the evils that have been perpetrated in the name of Communism and defend it based on some idealistic, theoretical idea of what it should have been. The fact is, Communism is the very embodiment of the notion that the ends justify the means. Since the goal is so ‘noble’, killing a hundred or even a million people is okay if it gets you there.
I was going to say something pithy about how much this notion revolts me, but I’m frankly out of adjectives.
In theory, my grandmother would be a wagon if she had wheels. In theory, nobody should ever go hungry in a capitalist society because the market should fix everything.
Your claim is ridiculous. Communism places the needs of the state above the needs of the individual. That is an absolute, incontestible fact, one hundred percent supported by the rather enormous amount of evidence.
MARX might have advocated a stateless society. Actually, to be precise, he predicted one would come into being. But Marx was dead long before Communism was put into practice, and so that is entirely irrelevant. The actual group of politicial systems known as “Communism,” as practiced by actual human beings on the planet Earth, is not a “Stateless society.” It’s a society where the needs of the state trump individual rights.
I suppose I should put in an appearance, eh?
“Kiss my ass” all around, then? “With tongue” for Sam Stone and black455, I should think.
That ought to do it as far as I care to add to this… carry on.
Welcome to our little revolution, comrade.
Speaking as a former Mega-Lenin-Apologist (that’s FORMER!!), I have to say that this is somehow one of the funniest thing’s I’ve ever read on the board. I started laughing really hard while reading it at school, so my friend next to me looked on to the screen. Laughing too hard to talk, I highlighted it.
My friend (also an amateur political theorist) burst in to song, holding the parts with excessive vowels. When I came to I said it in a Cartman voice, which I think is what it’s meant to be. Anyway, good show.
I may send this thread to a group that I used to be a pretty key member in. I did such a good job of distributing socialist propaganda through the city that they said they wanted me to form an Austin chapter and be the leader. Yay :rolleyes:. If you care to mess with them, here they are.
Lucky Charms
Aw go play with your Dzerzhinski doll.