Disgusting, revolting Lenin Apologists

The BBQ Pit
1

Over in this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82027

Olentzero is once again making his passioned defense of a brutal monster, one of the most evil men of this century.

When confronted with evidence in Lenin’s own handwriting showing that he personally ordered the execution of up to 8000 clergy, and the random hangings of kulaks in the countryside, Olentzero’s response is, “You have to consider the context”.

If you want to know how evil monsters are made, have a look here, folks. When you accept the premise that as long as a cause is just enough (if the context is right) you can carry out any evil act necessary, you start down the slope to Naziism or Communism. Reading that thread has me just about ready to vomit.

Oh yeah, this is the pit… FUCK ALL OF YOU WORTHLESS DICTATOR-LOVING MORONS WHO CAN’T LEARN FROM THE HORRORS OF THE PAST. YOU DROOLING THUG-WANNABE’S MAKE ME WANT TO PUKE IN THE PUTRID FUCKING HOLE THAT EXISTS WHERE YOUR BRAIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE. CRAWL BACK IN YOUR HOLE AND SHUT UP BEFORE YOU CONVINCE OTHER MUSH-HEADS THAT MURDER AND TORTURE ARE VALID EXERCISES OF POLITICAL POLICY.
[Fixed the link. -JMCJ]

[Edited by John Corrado on 08-22-2001 at 02:15 PM]

2

Does Godwin’s law kick in if it’s a valid usage in an OP?

And Sam? I think you’re right. “The end justifies the means” is simply an excuse for those with more passion than compassion to justify their actions.

And defending something by saying “think of the context” acknowledges that the speaker feels the action was horrific and needs justification.

3

Um,are you sure that link points to the correct thread? I see a discussion of sexual harassment, with no posts from **Olentzero[/] at all.

I am confused.

4

Forgot the damned B.

rats.

5

I don’t think so.
Without context: “Buy me some bread”
With Context: I was just at the store when my friend offered to purchase some peaches for me as a “payback” for buying him lunch earlier in the day. “Hmm, though you know I love fruit I already have some at home. Buy me some bread?”

That doesn’t mean I disagree that Lenin was a fuck. I cannot envision a realistic or even historic scenario which would entail me ordering someone to murder 8000 people.

[sidenote]I was reading that thread for a bit, and Guin was disappointing me a bit. She’s usually a much more passionate poster, even though I think I disagree with her on almost every damn thing in the book.[/sidenote]

6

“But he was trying to build a better societeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee…and plus, the Imperial family was so much worse…and it’s not his fault his cause was hijacked by butchers more extreme even than heeeeee…”

The resulting society was NOT better, the atrocities of Stalin and other cronies who inherited the country don’t somehow cancel out the atrocities of Lenin.

The French Revolution resulted (eventually) in a more democratic regime in France. It makes Robspierre’s Reign of Terror no more excusable. A butcher is a butcher is a butcher.

7

having followed the thread I saw no need to check the link.

Here’s the corrected one: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82027

8

(Not a hijack)How about apologists for Castro? The first thing out of their mouths is that Cuba has free medical care. As if free medcial care is worth repression. Sheesh.

9

Context is important. Lenin was finishing off a revolution. How many people were executed during and following the French revolution?

10

So what? Does every revolution have a Murder Quota, and as long as you stay under it you’re okay?

Lenin was a bloodthirsty, murderous cretin whose revolution created a terrifying and oppressive dictatorship. The result of his work was death, slavery, and terror. The fact that Russia had more than its fair share of death, slavery and terror before Lenin no more excuses his crimes than you can excuse Charles Manson by saying that he didn’t do anything worse than Jack the Ripper.

I think Olentzero might be a smart guy, but on this subject his blindness and bigotry is almost beyond comprehension.

11

Sorry about that screwed up link, guys. I pasted from my cut n’ paste buffer, and apparently didn’t copy the other link.

Oh yeah, this is the pit…

FUCK ALL THOSE CRETINS WHO CAN’T FIGURE OUT HOW TO POST A GODDAMN LINK TO A FUCKING THREAD!!!

Anyway, in that thread you’ll find a link (if I didn’t screw it up) to a bunch of Lenin’s writings. They read like the rantings of a hate-filled despot. It’s all full of crushing opponents, ‘filthy’ people, teaching ‘lessons’, you name it. It’s a picture into the mind of a monster every bit as terrifying as Mein Kampf.

Why is it that we rightly vilify anyone who tries to defend Hitler and his actions, but when people like Olentzero come out defending Lenin we go, “Well, you have to consider the context”, and give him a free pass?

It makes me sick.

12

What disturbed me even more than Olentzero’s comments were these words by Captain Amazing.

“I never argued that his children were evil…I don’t think anyone argued that his children were evil. They were killed because they were a threat. As long as they lived, they were a magnet for monarchists, and their death was a neccesary evil.”

Why do some people feel it is necessary to defend the Russian Revolution by defending every atrocity that was committed in its course? I don’t know anyone who feels that in order to defend the American Revolution it is necessary to justify Washington’s burning Indian villages. We recognize that our revolution could have and should have been brought off without such crimes. Yet Lenin’s apologists, or at least some of them, evidently feel it necessary to say not only that the revolution was justified, but that even the most grisly barbarities that were committed in the course of the revolution were justified also.

13

[hijack]
Well, actually, a comparison between Manson and Lenin, as leaders of groups of ostensibly political murderers who didn’t do the killing themselves is more valid than comparing Manson with Jack the Ripper. How about Ted Bundy and Jack?
[/hijack]

14

I didn’t argue that the deaths of the Romanovs were justified. I had, in a previous post, pointed out that the tsar was not a very nice man, and Guin answered

To which I answered that no one argued that the Romanov children were evil, just that they were too dangerous to live.

15

But what about the staff, servants and pet? Collateral damage or some overachiever killers? Perhaps they were ordered to make a very strong point.

16

Communism is not evil.

Nazi-ism (sorry) is not evil

Some communists are evil

Some nazis were evil

Some were regular, everyday people who fought for their country. Farmers, bankers, bakers.

A political or economical system is neither good nor evil.

17

Bullshit. Political philosophies which advocate or even demand immoral acts are immoral.

The key similarity between Communism and Naziism is that both elevate the needs of the state above the rights of the individual. It’s no surprise that people who believed in either system wound exterminating large quantities of people.

The only ‘good’ Nazis are the ones who reached into themselves and found enough humanity to keep them from carrying out the types of acts that the political philosophy not only allowed, but endorsed. And that means they weren’t really Nazis. And many of them were shot for their troubles. The same goes for the ‘good’ communists, who wound up being ‘enemies of the revolution’ and stacked in mass graves like cordwood.

18

It’s just misunderstood, right?

Bullshit.

True.

No, most (with a very few exceptions) Nazis were evil fucking SOBs.

Communist bankers? WTF?

Jabe, those who split hairs with fire axes often lose fingers.

19

Quicksilver,
I’m not sure how the killings of the servants was rationalized, or where the order to do that came from, so I can’t tell you whether that was a policy decision, or just enthusiasm on Yurovsky’s part.

20

The main reason is, what do I say? I’ve pointed out that Lenin was an evil brute. Olentzero-who I like, btw, is biased, as I am, in favor of Nikolai-though I will not defend the fact that he was a failure as a ruler, as well as anti-semetic.

As far as context-well, you do have to look at reasons-you can’t judge yesterday’s people by today’s standards EXACTLY. (Like when people call Lincoln or Twain racists, for example).

That said, Olentzero and I have been around this before. He refuses to acknowledge it. What can I say? The sad thing was, someone like Lenin was pretty much inevitable, after Kerensky was gone. IF Nicky had modified his rule way back in the day, things may have been better. IF the Duma in 1905 had been able to stay in power and have more of a say. IF Nicky’s grandfather, Alexander II hadn’t been killed, etc etc. IF Lenin hadn’t been brought in by the Kaiser.
That’s why I’m not saying much-I can’t defend the Tsarist system, as much as I love Nicholas and his family. Yes, I do have a great deal of affection towards them. Does that mean I excuse the pogroms as necessary? No, of course not.

Yes, there is an explanation for Lenin, but not an excuse. And I still stand by that the Bolshevik regime was worse than the previous monarchy and the provisional government. Say what you want about Kerensky-he at least tried.

Say what you want about Nicky-at least he had a conscience.
And Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia were dangerous? How so? The whole family just wanted to be able to go to England, or even the Crimea if possible-if that’s what would have been best for Russia.

One reason that King Aleksandar of Yugoslavia was so dead set against communism and recognizing the Soviet Union was that he was in love with Olga, and wanted to marry her-she was killed and from what I understand, that started the whole opposition to even moderate socialism in the Balkans at that time. Not to mention that his brother-in-law was one of those murdered.

A few WERE allowed to escape. Alexei’s dog Joy, who was also in the prison with them escaped as he was still upstairs. Jemmy, Anastasia’s dog, was carried into that basement in her arms. The soldiers CLUBBED the dog to death. Joy later was taken in by a British officer when Sokolov arrived with the White officers-as well as the tutor of the children, Pierre Gilliard, who helped identify the findings of Sokolov-which included Dr. Botkin’s dentures and spectacles, Alexandra’s FINGER, string and nails which had been in Alexei’s pockets, etc etc.

They were murdered because Lenin was afraid of them. Maybe he had a reason to be-Nicholas was far more forgiving-his last words were, after it was announced they were to be executed-“Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do.”