Disney villains wear dark clothes: does that reinforce racism?

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=fessie]
OK, wait – 1010011010 - are you trying to assert that racism is a thing of the past in America?
[/QUOTE]
No, I’m just saying the topic of this thread made me think of that comment. While I don’t think it’s generally true, I think it’s mostly correct in this particular case.

You’re basically asking if 3 year olds being afraid of the dark “reinforces racism”. Getting your child a nightlight isn’t supporting the KKK . Animators and other visual designers playing on the human fear of shadows (and what unknown dangers may hide in them) has only incidental relation with some people on Earth happening to have darker skin than some other people on Earth.

Black kids are afraid of the dark, too.

62

[QUOTE=storyteller0910]
I need to emphasize this question, because I asked it once and never got an answer: do you actually believe that the character of Scar in The Lion King was intended by his animators to be a “black” lion, in the same sense that we would call James Earl Jones a “black” man? And that Mufasa was intended by his creators to be a “white” lion, in the same sense that we would call Jeremy Irons a “white” man?

Do you actually believe that the coloring of the hyenas (gray) reflects racial issues? That they are colored gray in an effort to depict a particular race? The three actors selected to play the hyenas are a black female, a Hispanic male, and a white male; the white male is playing the stupid, incoherent, sublingual hyena. I have never met a gray human being; which race, exactly, is being suggested by the hyenas?

Do you really maintain that the role of Rafiki in this film is similar to the role of Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequels - a bumbler and a character to be mocked?
[/QUOTE]

Do I think there’s a Central Conference of Racist Caucasians that convenes every year to push their agenda?

No.

But the people at Disney who create visual imagery are well aware of its connotations and, given the Disney company’s position as a worldwide marketer of entertainment geared towards children, they have a social responsibility to stop reinforcing the negative stereotypes associated with the color black.

You people think I’m full of beans – where is the positive black imagery in your daily lives? Where is it?

My kids are calling, sorry I can’t answer you in more detail right now.

63

Zebra, those are the Sleeping Beauties to which I was referring. I haven’t seen Sleeping Beauty recently (if ever).

64

[QUOTE=fessie]
But the people at Disney who create visual imagery are well aware of its connotations and, given the Disney company’s position as a worldwide marketer of entertainment geared towards children, they have a social responsibility to stop reinforcing the negative stereotypes associated with the color black.

[quote]
No they don’t. Why should they, if it is neither proven that the color bias is linked to racism?

People, or objects?

65

[QUOTE=fessie]
You people think I’m full of beans – where is the positive black imagery in your daily lives? Where is it?
[/QUOTE]
Batman.

I agree, much of black imagery is supposed to be negative, or neutral/anti-hero at best. But imagery has nothing to do with black people. I do not hate or fear my coworker because Maleficient dressed in black.

Is someone in a yellow dress supposed to influence my feelings toward Asians, too?

66

[QUOTE=fessie]
Do I think there’s a Central Conference of Racist Caucasians that convenes every year to push their agenda?

No.

But the people at Disney who create visual imagery are well aware of its connotations and, given the Disney company’s position as a worldwide marketer of entertainment geared towards children, they have a social responsibility to stop reinforcing the negative stereotypes associated with the color black.

[/QUOTE]

Why? I’ll ask this again: do you know anyone who has actual black skin? Not dark brown or light brown or burnt umber or some variation on brown, but actual black skin, the way my suit is black?

Black (the actual color, particularly in clothing) sometimes has negative connotations for a variety of reasons. Others have mentioned its associations with shadow and dark, which are fearful concepts to children of all races. To this I’d add the fact that black is also associated with mourning - it’s traditionally worn to funerals and in other mournful situations, because it is considered respectful and polite to wear a color that won’t draw attention from the death. This association makes characters who dress all in black as a matter of course seem a little morbid, as if they’re waiting on someone to die. Other times, black has connotations of class, coolness, sleekness.

“Black” as in clothing color or “black” as in skin color?

If the former, this dude wears a lot of black.

So does every incarnation of this guy.

This guy is already looking like one of the most likable players in sports, and he’ll be wearing black for the next fifteen years.

This woman has never been viewed as ugly or evil, in spite of wearing a black dress in the single image that defined her career. Didn’t hurt Norma Jean, either.

But this is silly. Black, like every color, has a host of associations - it is associated with darkness, evil, death, mystery, coolness, suavity, class, charm, sexiness, and the freaking Portland Trail Blazers. No one is disputing this. What you have not shown or even begun to demonstrate is that these associations carry over to how people view other human beings who do not have skin of the same color as we are discussing.

67

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
Personally, I’d love to see Disney do a remake of the Uncle Remus stories. The chance of that happening is close to zero.
[/QUOTE]

I heard a rumor a year or so ago that Morgan Freeman was considering a movie version of the Brer Rabbit stories, but I can’t find anything online to support this rumor. That would be awesome.

Frankly, I find it very difficult to credit the idea that black clothes indicate racism, especially when the villains are generally so bone-white. Other traits–the lack of nonwhite protagonists for such a long time, the Caucasian features of Pocahontas, etc.–are problematic. But clothes and skin are completely different.

As for positive associations with black clothes in my life, I have plenty. That may be because I have a lot of goth friends, of course :).

Daniel

68

[QUOTE=fessie]
Zebra, those are the Sleeping Beauties to which I was referring. I haven’t seen Sleeping Beauty recently (if ever).
[/QUOTE]

But those are pictures of the villains now are they.

Do you want to discuss the imagery of the films, where the people in dark clothes do mean nasty things, and thus put the idea in children’s minds that dark=evil, or do you want to talk about the current merchandising?

The current merchandising tends to leave the villains out it completely. Also, a princess on a towel isn’t doing anything good or evil. They seem pretty neutral, to me at least.
Here is an image from the film.

She spends most of her screen time in this dress. In fact, I don’t think she has a line of dialogue after she changes into her princess dress.

69

[QUOTE=Malthus]
Probably because she’s the product of generations of inbreeding among Macedonian aristocrats. :stuck_out_tongue:
[/QUOTE]

No, because most people have the notion that she was beautiful. In coins she isn’t exactly anybody’s idea of pretty, though.

Hippy Hollow, black guys (not so much black women) in “caricature” European comics (Uderzo, Escobar…) often looked like that. Yes, it’s an absolute caricature. I haven’t read the English versions of Astérix; in Spanish the black pirate has a heavy and unidentifiable accent but so do all of the pirates (it’s different accents). This is in part, and I’m WAGging here, because we weren’t used to seeing black people at all; I saw my first 3D black man in Dublin in '82, the second one on the tarmac at JFK in '87. Nowadays there’s black people all over the place and even the “caricature” comics are less extreme when picturing them (the “realistic” artists always tried to be realistic, hence the name). It’s easier for an artist to get a black model and to look for the subtle differences in faces rather than the more extreme ones. Plus, Angelina or Jessica Alba’s caricatures in European comic mags have bigger lips than the black pirate…

Have you watched the Beyoncé/Shakira video for “Beautiful Liar”? That one has material for several class discussions on “what does race really mean and do we really look so different” - once you can get the students to stop slobbering, that is! Not only have they done the stylism to enhance the similarities, but they keep switching places and clothes, it’s like an “eight differences” game.

70

[QUOTE=fessie]
You people think I’m full of beans – where is the positive black imagery in your daily lives? Where is it?
[/QUOTE]
Personally ? I don’t have positive or negative black imagery in my daily life.

As for people in general, millions of Catholics look up to priests and nuns who wear black. So do priests of some other denominations. There are police who wear black or dark blue.

71

[QUOTE=Nava]
No, because most people have the notion that she was beautiful.

[/QUOTE]

Heh, I know. I was teasing. Along the lines of “the only pretty Black woman in the comic isn’t actually Black”.

She’s also not anybody’s idea of Black on those statues and coins, either. :smiley:

http://sangha.net/messengers/cleopatra/Coins.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ac.cleopatra.jpg

72

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]

To respond to the question: I wouldn’t expect there to be a blatant, outright decision by Disney execs in recent times, at least, to make characters appear more fiendish by making them wear dark clothes. But I do think that there is a subconscious connection that we all have that operates on some level. Just my $.02 during a coffee break.
[/QUOTE]

Huh?

Of COURSE movie creators deliberately and consciously make their characters appear more fiendish by making them wear dark clothes. Do you think Darth Vader dresses all in black by accident? That they tried out a sky blue outfit, a salmon pink outfit, and a black outfit, and George Lucas said, “You know, that last one makes him look scarier. But I can’t put my finger on why, exactly. Well, let’s go with the black outfit then.”

Of course they deliberate dress evil characters in black.

This is not a problem. How anyone could imagine this could be racist boggles my tiny little mind.

What could arguably be problematic is the darkening of characters. So the evil lion is several shades darker than the good lion. One one level this is simply the same thing as dressing in black. Dark colors are heavier and scarier, bright colors are lighter and happier. On the other hand, this is the character’s skin and hair. At THIS level we might expect the potential for unconscious racial attitudes. Except Scar in “The Lion King” doesn’t have any stereotypical african american attributes, rather he’s voiced by some pale english guy. And the light colored good father lion is voiced by some dark skinned guy–the same guy who voiced Darth Vader. Or we have Mickey Mouse, covered in black fur with a pink face–if you want to pick out a character drawn straight from the old minstrel shows, there he is. Except Mickey clearly isn’t a stealth caricature either. Or, what race is the all-black Daffy Duck? What race is Bugs Bunny–who seems to me to be a linear descendant of the folkloric trickster rabbit stories that Joel Chandler Harris collected.

But of course, there really are racist caricatures in animation. The crows in Dumbo are a perfect example. Or the servant donkey centaur in Fantasia–but note that a few scenes later we see elegant black zebra centaurs at the appearance of Silenius, and while they may play on stereotypes they aren’t hateful stereotypes. And there’s Coal Black and the Sebben Dwarves. And the WWII anti-Japanese propaganda films. Old animated films are stuffed with Mammies, Stepin Fetchits, Black Crows,and so forth, and even when they weren’t trying to be intentionally offensive figures they can still be pretty offensive, such as “The Song of the South”.

I guess on the one hand we’ve got “The Song of the South” which while it wasn’t deliberately hateful is still pretty racist, on the other hand we’ve got Darth Vader wearing a black outfit instead of a pink outfit. To equate the two is pretty silly.

73

Ah, but Hippy Hollow very accuratedly said “African,” not “black.” :slight_smile:

74

[QUOTE=Nava]
Ah, but Hippy Hollow very accuratedly said “African,” not “black.” :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

She lived in Africa, but her ancestry was pure Macedonian. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, the whole point was that she was a counter-example to the thick-lipped pseudo-Sambo characature of the other “African” characters in the comic. :wink:

While this is in fact true (she is in fact portrayed as dark-skinned in the comic), it isn’t historically accurate - hence the joke.

75

[QUOTE=fessie]
[T]he people at Disney who create visual imagery are well aware of its connotations
[/QUOTE]
Yes, many children are afraid of the dark.
[QUOTE=fessie]
Given the Disney company’s position as a worldwide marketer of entertainment geared towards children, they have a social responsibility to stop reinforcing the negative stereotypes associated with the color black.
[/QUOTE]
Assuming, of course, you succeed in making the case that continuing to acknowledge that people of every color have an instinctual fear of unknown dangers crouching in the shadows “reinforces racism” because some folks have lighter skin than some other folks.
[QUOTE=fessie]
You people think I’m full of beans – where is the positive black imagery in your daily lives? Where is it?
[/QUOTE]
Cocktail dresses, leather jackets, dress shoes, electronics. Though in some cases black is better because of the “edge” it provides based on the day/night symbolism discussed previously.

What the perception of a given color of objects has to do with a given color of people, I’m not sure… as I don’t see that anyone’s explained an inevitable causal connection very well. It also doesn’t really work when the same type light:dark::good:evil imagery exists in the cultural symbolism of a broad spectrum of populations… including dark skinned ones.

76

The association of blackness and dark colors with evil has a long history, and Disney (and other groups) are merely drawing on this. The demons in Hieronumous Bosch’s Hells are frequently so dark they’re hard to pick out. And Bosch was influenced by miniature painters and illuminators. Certainly there were plenty of other Dark Demons in European art. Angels, by contrast, were white or had brightly colored robers and wings.

This wasn’t limited to Western Art. You find the same Dark Demons in Asian art – all those Evil powers, Gods of Hell, and Demons in Buddhist Hells are painted in very dark colors.

I seriously doubt that this is racist. The associations of black with dirt, mildew, mold, clotted blood, and other undesirable and contaminating evil things is too clear, and the association of white with clear and purity to obvious.

(It’s not always Black = Bad, Whte = Good". Black ashes are seen as clean and even ennobling – Cinderella’s sleeping in the ashes was seen as somewhat ennobling. Blach Bread was nourishing, if low-class. Nobody looks down on “black butter”. White can be a symbol of decay or deadliness – see “whitened sepulchers”, all the stuff in Moby Dick, and the white “Destroying Angel” amanitas)

Certainly, though, were I black, I’d feel oppressed by these reiterations of Dark Evil. And, as noted above, Disney (and others) are consciously changing this – non-white heroes and heroines. The all-black cast of “Cinderella” (and other Disney channel productions), and so forth. even white heroines are more likely to have dark hair, for that matter.

as for Black Symbols of Good Stuff in everyday life, what about Stud Black cars. Little Black Books, Little Black Dresses. Why would a scent company come out with Drakkar Noir if it weren’t sexy? Why would Black and White Weddings be popular?

77

[QUOTE=Pochacco]
But it’s very difficult to approach the story today without all of the ugly baggage that the name “Sambo” carries with it.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, everytime I head Sambo I think about the chain of pancake houses of the same name in NorCal in the '80s. :cool:

78

[QUOTE=fessie]
How many of you men would wear a pink shirt?

[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t wear a pink shirt. Most of my clothes are black. Do you think that’ll get me into the NOI?

79

[QUOTE=fessie]
Zebra, those are the Sleeping Beauties to which I was referring. I haven’t seen Sleeping Beauty recently (if ever).
[/QUOTE]

I think this is the dress Zebra means. Turn down the volume though, the music is tinny and annoying… Sleeping Beauty’s pre-princess dress

80

That is the dress she spends the majority of the film wearing.

Of course, having actually seen the films, makes discussing and finding trends in them much easier.