Wait, I said I was done arguing this. :smack:
You guys are obviously correct that black is not always, nor exclusively, used to represent negative characterizations.
Also, it looks like I need to apologize for casting aspersions on The Lion King’s Rafi. I was wrong.
I think the brown/black distinction is picayune - black Americans are called black whether they’re sepia or dark umber. I thought it was pretty well known that there is a bias (in some cultures, including the U.S.) based on degrees of darkness.
But back to the OP, do dark clothes on a white person create the illusion/effect/reaction of looking at a black person? Obviously I think they do, but I don’t know how to test it. Does it carry over to subconscious racism? I posted links to at least one person who thinks it does, but that’s not quite “proof”.
It reminds me of the philo 101 question, is the blue light shining on the white wall creating a “blue wall”?
The closest thing I’ve seen is research where little black girls were asked which cartoon they liked better (more attractive?) (more representative of “goodness”?) (I can’t remember exactly which question they asked) and these little girls chose the caucasian one, over and over.
With all the other points raised here, I think this would make such an interesting thesis project: I would love to compare negative imagery in Disney films against popular stereotypes, though history.
As that paper cited by Pochacco points out that The Jungle Book plays off of black stereotypes that were commonplace at that moment in history.
Right now, there are a LOT of whites who are rebelling against the “darkening” of America. They may not be Dopers, but they ARE out there, and in large numbers. So it’s interesting to see that the “Disney Princess” product line (which is very popular at the moment) is white-as-all-get-out. Those girls couldn’t BE any whiter.
Still, the question is whether Disney is providing a beacon, or is just a mirror. I don’t know the answer to that.
And, BTW, I couldn’t even WATCH Who Framed Roger Rabbit. I thought the whole thing was about racism. Same with Planet of the Apes (although I love that movie).
Actually I disagree with what that paper says about The Jungle Book. Wainer’s interpretation of the King Louie sequence, as well as the Metcalf article he makes reference to, are both fatally flawed by both authors’ ignorance of Louis Prima.
Louis Prima is not merely “a more likely source of the name”. King Louie is a straight-up parody of Prima. For starters, he’s voiced by Prima himself. And in his song he calls himself “The King of the Swingers” – which is how Prima billed himself in the real world. And many of the dance moves that King Louie performs are straight out of Prima’s act (yeah, he was a total loon on stage).
The entire King Louie sequence was a big inside joke for the adults in the audience. Everyone knew who Prima was and what his act was like. It was the equivalent of having Robin Williams voice the genie in Aladdin. And the joke is doubled by having another famous band leader – Phil Harris – doing the voice of Baloo.
The thing is, Prima is white. He grew up in New Orleans and started playing jazz there at an early age. He’s not even a Vanilla Ice-style poseur appropriating “black music” to make a buck. He’s totally authentic.
So the whole “the monkeys in the Jungle Book are supposed to represent blacks” argument is just nonsense. The monkeys in the Jungle Book are making fun of no one but Louis Prima, and he’s in on the goof. The racist baggage of the Jungle Book isn’t anything in the original movie. It’s OUR baggage, our contemporary bias toward thinking of jazzmen as black. We see a monkey and hear a New Orleans accent and think “how racist!” without stopping to consider that perhaps the racism is of our own construction.
Look, of course the crows in Dumbo are supposed to be Black. I suppose we can capitalize Black to refer to Black people, black to refer to the color black, otherwise this might get confusing. Yes, they’re Black, not just black. Yes, they speak in AAVE. But are they a hateful stereotype? The pickaninny centaur from Fantasia was a hateful racist stereotype. The crows in Dumbo aren’t. Is it automatically racist to feature a character that speaks in AAVE? I agree that the existance of a character that speaks in AAVE should alert you to the possibility or even probability that the character will be depicted in a racist way. And the question then becomes, why exactly was the decision made to have this character speak in AAVE? Sure, it could easily be racism, and very often was.
And now Poccacho demolishes the argument that the monkeys in “The Jungle Book” are supposed to be racist depictions of Blacks.
Of course just because a Black character is portrayed “positively” doesn’t mean that it isn’t also a racist portrayal, Mammy from “Gone With The Wind” is the canonical example.
But they could, though-- if they were all dressed in white.
Out of curiosity, I did an image search, and evidently Jasmine and Mulan are also featured in the “Disney Princess” product line. Don’t ask me how Mulan suddenly rates as a princess. Are they just letting anyone into the club now?
My pastel-sense tells me that when Disney does finally get around to creating a princess of sub-Saharan African extraction, she won’t be dressed in dark colors either. So prepare yourself for disappointment in that regard.
However, keep in mind that Disney has already given little black girls a glamorous and romantic role model in Tia Dalma, the voodoo princess from the **Pirates of the Caribbean ** film franchise. She’s clearly on the side of the good guys, and yet she meets all the sartorial requirements for authentic blackitude: dark clothing, dark hair, dark skin, dark teeth.
I still don’t see what’s so inherently offensive about the Disney Princesses being white, considering the source material they’ve drawn on for the past sixty years. Perhaps you could criticize their lack of range with source material, but that was only ever even considered in the past ten, MAYBE fifteen years. I mean, Barbie doesn’t even have the excuse of being stuck with a hundreds year old fairy tale as a source, and I think she’s a much bigger influence on little girls than Disney princesses.
(And wait, Mulan is in the Disney princess line and not POCAHONTAS, who at least fits the bill of a ruler’s daughter?)
Yes, but as others here have pointed out, how, then, would you explain Batman? Mickey Mouse?
Yes, this has already been brought up in this thread repeatedly, and no one has disputed it. It also has no relevance to the topic.
I believe you’re thinking of the study done by Dr. Kenneth Clark, which used dolls, not cartoons. And the purpose was to demonstrate what the girls had learned from society in general, not what they’d learned from the dolls. So, assuming you’re not refering to some other study I’m unaware of, it’s pretty much got nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
Have you actually looked at the Disney Princesses? Because, in fact, those girls could be significantly whiter. There are currently eight Disney Princesses. They include Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora (from Sleping Beauty), Ariel (The Little Mermaid), Belle (Beauty and the Beast), Jasmine (Aladdin), Pocahontas, and Mulan. When The Princess and the Frog comes out, it’ll be nine. Almost half of them are non-white. Of the white princesses, more than half of them are from films that are between fifty and seventy years old. They haven’t introduced a white princess in more than fifteen years.
So, if you’re trying to demonstrate that minorities are under represented in Disney films… well, this really isn’t the best example for you. Plus, it’s rather misplaced in this thread, as the topic isn’t about minority representation in popular media, but wether the association of black with evil is somehow derived from or an influence on general racism in Western culture.
That’s certainly an… enlightening revelation.
Near as I can tell, the Dumbo Crows are just about as racist as Fat Albert’s bunch.
Here’s a short video of Richard Sherman talking about how Louis Prima was cast as King Louie. It’s also got some great footage of Prima and his band performing to provide a visual reference for the animators.
And here’s some Keely Smith because she totally rocks.
Well, I declare, I’ve about driven my poor self to drinkin’ listenin’ to all this carryin’ on.
Hi, Southern woman here.
I absolutely adore Uncle Remus. I’m damned mad that we can’t appreciate the stories for what they were, when they were and how they were. Doesn’t mean we have to be a buncha racist idiots, but damn, don’t throw him in the briar patch!
Johnny Cash. Sorry, but if ya wanna look really cool, you better be wearing black or be James Dean.
I had a customer a few weeks ago that was the absolute blackest person I’ve ever seen. Flat black. There wasn’t a hint of brown on him. Really neat.
My niece loved our room mate Simon best of all. He was from Nigeria, and to her baby eyes, heck, he was distinguishable from the rest of us pastie whites.
Black is an incredibly striking color for many things, people included. I severely doubt any child looks at those villians and thinks anything other than “Oh crap, there’s the bad guy. Now I can spot him.” It’s a color convention that we’ve pretty firmly establish predates and outreaches this countries racism. I’m glad someone finally brought up priests, because according to the news, little boys should be TERRIFIED!. Except that hey, it doesn’t work that way. I’d venture to guess that if you queried the boys molested by priests, they aren’t afraid of black people, or priests in general. I’m pretty sure they are pretty damned afraid of the ones that molested them.
Racism is learned. As best I can tell, the villans get all the good clothes. Has anyone ever looked at Superman and thought “Hey, great costume!” What about Batman? Spiderman?
My daughter must think people in black are awesome. See, I wear a black uniform to work and she sees me in black 4 days a week. Even if she watches a Disney movie, I doubt she is going to shriek in fear from me. (Although, to her credit, her daddy doesn’t have hair, so when he puts on a hat, she freaks) (Also to her credit, when she was with a baby sitter, the only other child there was a black boy, so my daughter thinks all black boys are her friend)
And she’s a big fan of Disney, although she likes Pixar too. I hope the experiences in her life teach her what to be afraid of and what NOT to fear (which is everything at this point) not a simple, easy visual aid to being able to say “Here’s the bad guy in this movie.”
Now, how to explain her favorite plush doll being Shrek?
Pochacco, that’s a terrific piece re: Louie Prima. I do know his name, and knew he’d done that voice, but I was completely unaware of the physical characterization supplied by The Jungle Book. I wonder what that scholarly author would think of your argument?
Miller, Jasmine might as well BE white, she doesn’t have Middle-Eastern features, and Mulan isn’t really a princess (although she does have Asian features). Pocahontas is a great example of how Disney mangles and distorts history (although at least they didn’t make her a princess). And, at any rate, those three AREN’T included in the “Disney Princess” line of products. Sure, you can say “It’s a company’s right to choose how to sell their merchandise,” but seeing little black girls surrounded by all those white faces, it just looks terribly odd and wrong.
You really don’t think Planet of the Apes is about white fear of a black America? Huh. I thought that one was plain as day.
I may be wrong about this belief, I may. I still think it’s significant that the battle of good over evil is visually represented as light over dark. I’ve thought so since I was a kid in the '70s when Indianapolis started forced busing of children and we all got a lesson in racism. As a 9-yr-old I didn’t know anything about the evening news or Jim Crow laws (and politically correct wasn’t even a concept), but it was clear to me that it must be tough having skin the color of “bad”.
I think I’ll just stick with Muppets from here on out. They’re rainbow-hued.
[QUOTE=fessieMiller, Jasmine might as well BE white, she doesn’t have Middle-Eastern features[/quote]
I think you’ve got a weird double standard going on here. When it comes to clothes, they indicate racism merely by having a color adjective pronounced the same as a racial category (that is, “black” the color is not the same as “black” the racial group); they need have nothing else in common with race categories in order to indicate racism. But when it comes to people, having the skin tone and the cultural backdrop is not sufficient to indicate a race category: they must also have the facial characteristics common to that racial group.
I actually think your second standard is closer to the truth. Disney, for a long time, took baby steps toward multicultural protagonists, and seeing (for example) Pocahontas up on screen with her terribly European features was kind of irritating. She did not really appear to be Native American.
But you need to choose one standard or the other. Either race may be indicated even through the most oblique means, such as colors of clothing that share a name with the race, or else an indication of race must include all features of that race, not only skin tone but also other physical characteristics typical for members of that race.
Huh. If anything, it’s the reverse, a commentary on racism as someone who was on top of the system suddenly experiences arbitrary racial (or species) discrimination.
fessie, take a look at this review. It’s really interesting.
Daniel
The most relevant passage from that review is copied here for the link-lazy:
Daniel
My neice isn’t really a princess but she used to wear a shirt proclaiming herself to be one. Maybe I’m dense, but aside from the darker skin, hair, and eyes, I don’t think most people from the middle east look radically different then I do.
From the Disney Princess website it looks like Mulan, Pocahontas, and Jasmine are all included.
Well, it was based on a story written by a Frenchman, but maybe he was writing about about the fear Americans have of black people. Quite honestly, while watching the movie it never occured to me that it was about black America.
Maybe, but the representation is a lot older then our modern conceptions of racism.
I read once that one of the reasons so many child education experts liked cartoons with animals was because you couldn’t pin any race to them.
Marc
Planet of the Apes (the book, which is actually quite good, and not the movies, which all suck) is not about race. It’s a social commentary.
The Disney Princess line includes all of those and has been around for many years. But the big sellers are Belle, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty and Ariel. So now the product line is more focused on them.
I’m still waiting to hear how Who Framed Roger Rabbit is all about racism.
I don’t know that it’s ALL about racism (and it’s not necessarily white/black racism) – but it started out with one group (the humans) having the power and another group (the animated creatures) working for them and then they put some critter in a bucket of (was it boiling oil?) to torture him, and I was OUTTA there.
Listen to the commentary - they say exactly so. Fessie’s spot on about that.
Well, not exactly so. They say it’s about segregation, paralleling American racial segregation.
And they put the critter (an animated shoe, with a face) in a pot of paint thinner to kill him.
Certainly it had some of those overtones in it, but this demonstrates the problem with critiquing a movie based on incomplete information. Suffice it to say that it works better as an analogy for homophobia or antisemitism than it does for racism, given a certain event that happens near the end of the movie. (I’m not saying it’s anything like a perfect allegory, but it doesn’t really work as anti-black racism).
I think you’re seeing racism in the wrong places, based, again, on incomplete knowledge.
Edit: of course, given pizzabrat’s post that came in as I was typing, the same criticism could apparently be made of me :).
Daniel
You know, sometimes a cartoon shoe dipped in Dip is just a cartoon shoe dipped in Dip.