Disneyland Measles Outbreak

[BrainGlutton]

@asterion

There could be ten more outbreaks in Disneyland and I’d still go to California over Florida.

I’ve been to both parks; WDW is newer, bigger, nicer and has more stuff.

[crazyjoe]

@LavenderBlue

If you read the comments on his Facebook page, you’ll see that people are NOT getting the vaccine. Here’s a man who could correct this problem. He could write up a post on common vaccine misconceptions. They would listen to him. And what does he do? ignores them. He could even pay a student a lousy twenty bucks to do it for him. But he won’t. This is the face of a measles promoter in our society. This is a doctor, a respected doctor from a respected family. And he’s refusing to help protect our society against the spread of a nasty disease.

Actually, I suspect if he did try to “correct misconceptions about vaccines” that those people wouldn’t listen, they’d just brand him a turncoat and go somewhere else. It’s not like you can’t find that brand of preaching anywhere else on the 'net but with Dr. Sears.

[Jackmannii]

@LavenderBlue

So Dr. Putz has the time to write up crap but he won’t take the time to correct misconceptions about his crap.

It’s a common strategem used by alties (as noted in Jackmannii’s Seven Pillars of Woo).

The woo crowd will take abundant time to post reams of garbage online. When they realize they’ve messed up and are getting their head/posterior handed to them, they suddenly fall back on “Well, I have much better things to do with my time.”*

*I’ve seen “Dr. Jay” Gordon (southern California’s lesser celebrity antivax pediatrician) use the same ploy on Respectful Insolence.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

There are lots of non-third-world countries where measles is endemic. There are something like 5,000 cases per year between the UK and Germany.

[LavenderBlue]

Dr. Bob’s latest unhelpful Facebook rant:

Dr. Bob Sears
DR. BOB’S DAILY:

WHEN WE STOP LISTENING TO EACH OTHER, WE LOSE OUR HUMANITY

Why does the vaccine debate have to get so ugly? Why are some people on both sides of the issue so harsh to each other? Why can’t we all just get along? If the Beatles were still around, I’m sure they’d write a song. I don’t know if they’d call it “We All Live in Two Separate Submarines” or “Lucy in the Sky With Red Spots All Over.” Whatever it would be, the chorus would include “Everybody Calm the #$*@%!& Down.”

If both sides could calm down and start listening to each other, everybody would be able to get along. Now, I figure that 95% of the population probably doesn’t care. No, that’s not right. They care, but they are happy to leave well enough alone. Most will vaccinate, some won’t, and everybody simply chooses to love and respect each other. But such people are not vocal. They are the silent majority. It’s the vocal minority that stirs it up. Am I one of those? Ya, I guess. So, I’m writing to myself as well as to everyone else. But I’ve never called anyone names, except for stupid. I’m talking to all the pro-vaxers who get ugly and hateful in their comments, and the anti-vaxers who get hateful and ugly in their comments. If you all don’t start respecting each other, we’re not going to get anywhere.

Let me lay out a few talking points:

Those who are pro vaccine simply want one thing. Or rather, they don’t want one thing. Diseases. They don’t want measles (a disease that is virtually preventable with the MMR vaccine). They don’t want whooping cough (a disease that is mostly preventable with the DTaP vaccine). They don’t want chicken pox (a disease that is . . . OMG, do I really have to keep saying it . . . preventable with the Varicella vaccine). They don’t want the flu (not going to say it). They don’t want any of these diseases that are still around. And, even more importantly to them, they don’t want their babies who are too young to be vaccinated to get these diseases. AND, because vaccines aren’t 100% effective, they don’t want their vaccinated children to catch them either. Add to that the immunocompromised; nobody wants them to catch what would be a far more serious disease. Then, they don’t want diseases that have been eliminated, like polio and diphtheria, to return. It’s that simple.

So, when the anti-vaccination crowd doesn’t respect such ideas, it’s no wonder the pro-vaxers get pissed. Now, I’m pretty sure that the anti-vaxers don’t actually want pro-vaxers to get sick. They probably don’t want anyone to get seriously sick. They accept that there is a disease risk for their own children, but they can’t possibly wish it on anybody else.

How do anti-vaxers attack these goals? By claiming that vaccines don’t work. If vaccines don’t work, then all the pro-vaxer attempts at disease prevention are fruitless, and the anti-vaxers don’t pose any risk because the vaccines they didn’t get wouldn’t have helped anyway. This makes pro-vaxers understandably angry.

This is one of the most provocative areas of debate, but it’s one that I believe is improperly understood by one side. I firmly believe that vaccines do work. They do provide immunity. I do believe that vaccination is immunization. I don’t believe it’s perfect immunity, and neither does anybody else on the pro-vax side. Some vaccines provide a very high level of immunity, like 99%. Some really suck, like this year’s flu shot. DTaP vaccine is somewhere in between - maybe 85 to 90%, but it wanes quickly. To say that vaccines don’t work at all is incorrect, in my opinion.

What’s the number one argument that anti-vaxers put forth to demonstrate that vaccines don’t work? It’s the finding that in some outbreaks, more vaccinated people catch a disease than unvaccinated people. Conclusion? Vaccines don’t work. I look at it differently. If a vaccine is 80% effective, and 100 people are exposed to a very contagious disease, and 95% of the people are vaccinated, then what’s going to happen? 3 or 4 out of the 5 unvaxed will catch it. Maybe even just 1 or 2. And about 19 of the vaccinated people will catch it. This happens all the time. Does it mean the vaccine doesn’t work? No. It means the vaccine isn’t perfect, but it still prevented about 80 people from catching it, then spreading it around to hundreds of others. And if it’s a vaccine that 99% effective, that’s even better. But what’s tough is that some vaccines wear off quickly, within just a few years, as is the case with the whooping cough portion of the DTaP. Many 4 to 5 year olds are susceptible before they get the booster, and many 8 to 11 year olds even more so. That doesn’t mean the vaccine doesn’t work well for a couple to three years after the initial series and each booster. To say that vaccines don’t work doesn’t accomplish anything useful, in my opinion. I’ve studied so much data that show vaccines work, and I am convinced. That’s why I offer them in my office. If I didn’t think they worked, I wouldn’t bother.

I know that some anti-vaxers will still hold to the belief that vaccines don’t work, but I think such non-believers are the minority. I’m not saying you are bad people in any way. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with you as people to believe that. I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with you.

Now, on another note, I think that most anti-vaxers do believe vaccines work. They aren’t willing to risk the side effects, but they do acknowledge that they at least work. These believers would point out to all vaxers that “Hey, your kids are safe, or at least as safe as the vaccine’s effectiveness is. If MY kid catches a disease that your child is vaccinated against, your child is probably going to be fine.” This assurance isn’t perfect, but it’s the best we have.

I know that this doesn’t protect those too young to be vaccinated, and that these little ones can catch the disease from a sick unvaxed person (as well as a sick vaxed person in whom the vax didn’t work). That’s scary, and it’s especially tragic when it results in a fatality or permanent disability.

What makes the vaxers angry is when the non-vaxers say “Hey, you have nothing to worry about because our kids can’t make your kids sick.” They can, in one of the above scenarios. Non-vaxers shouldn’t claim otherwise. By at least acknowledging this, you might make the vaxers less angry at you. AND, other than the infants and the immunocompromised, almost all vaxers can rely on their immunity. You are all pretty well protected. Not perfectly, but well enough that you should be able to live life without fear.

Now for the other side, because there are always two sides. How do the non-vaxers feel? I think that their number one issue is this: They want a choice. They don’t want to be forced into a medical treatment they are not comfortable with. That’s probably the number one freedom that they want preserved. IF vaccines were 100% harmless to every single person that got them, I think that we could insist on vaccination. BUT because they are not, because occasional severe and even fatal vaccine reactions do happen, it is unethical to force them on anyone. Yes, I know they are safe for MOST people, but not for all.

And this is an issue that creates so much discord. Back in the 70s and 80s, when severe (but rare) vaccine reactions began to be reported, victims were crying out for help and no one was listening. The medical community was in complete denial that severe vaccine reactions were even possible. These victims were ignored. A generation of doctors were trained that severe vaccine reactions can’t happen. So, it’s taken many many years, but now almost everyone in the medical community agrees that they CAN happen. They aren’t common, but they can happen. They are still some naysayers, however, who use pseudoscience to demonstrate that those who have severe vaccine reactions have genetic problems which would have eventually caused the same problems anyway, given time. The vaccine just happened to trigger the problem sooner, or triggered it coincidentally. Yet the vaccine isn’t the cause. So, these naysayers continue to make victims and their families angry and up in arms. Those doctors are the minority, but they are a vocal minority, and families are worried that more and more doctors will once again believe that severe vaccine reactions can’t happen. And, will that lead to forced universal vaccination? Such parents are worried it will. So, families who feel their children are victims of a vaccine reaction will continue to be very vocal, as they should be. As long as the right to choose is threatened, which it currently is in the back rooms of the legislatures in most states, vocal anti-vax parents will continue to fight back.

How can pro-vaxers respond? Acknowledge that bad vaccine reactions can happen, that’s how. Stop trying to tell these parents and their children they are wrong. Have a little empathy. It didn’t happen to your child, but it did happen to someone’s. Have a heart. I know that the pro-vax vocal minority won’t, but all the rest of the quiet, majority vaxers certainly can. And you can get louder about it.

Anti-vaxers can reciprocate by acknowledging that the diseases can kill and maim as well. It, too, is uncommon. Yet it happens.

What else do non-vaxers want? They don’t want to be discriminated against. They want to be able to attend school if they want (if not sick, of course). They want their children to be able to play with the vaxer’s children. They don’t want it to even be an issue that affects social and family life. And non-vaxers don’t want their pro-vaxer relatives to give them such a hard time.

And the vaxers want the non-vaxers to stay home if exposed to a contagious disease, as we are seeing happen with measles (a disease which is preventable with the MMR vaccine). And they should. I think it IS a non-vaxers responsibility to accept a quarantine if exposed to a disease that other people don’t want to catch. It sucks to have to miss school and work, but I kind of think that non-vaxers sign up for that when they make that choice. This would help reduce the spread of the very diseases that the vaxers are trying to prevent, and they’d thank you for it.

I think that non-vaxers also want health care. They want to be able to go to the doctor without being read the riot act every time. Read them the riot act once, then move on. They don’t want to have to call 10 different pediatricians just to find one who isn’t prejudiced against their kind. This trend is actually going in the wrong direction; instead of become more understanding, more pediatricians in my area are discriminating against these people compared to a few years ago.

A final bit of food for thought. Let’s talk about rights. Which right is more important, the right to not get sick with a disease or the right to make health care decisions for yourself and your child? The way I see it, the diseases were here first. They are ubiquitous to our world. Whether created by God or by evolution, they are here. They are the status quo. Because we have invented a medical treatment to try to change the status quo, yet that treatment can cause harm to a very small percentage of people, it is my belief that we shouldn’t force anyone into accepting this treatment. Life happens, death happens. It’s terribly tragic when death happens before it’s time. Nobody wants anyone to die. And no one wants their child to suffer a severe vaccine reaction. So, it is my opinion that ethically speaking, we must give precedence to what the status quo was or is, that diseases exist and cause some casualties, and those who decide they want to take part in the disease prevention can enter into vaccinations by their own free choice.

I know, I know, pro-vaxers will say that anyone who doesn’t vaccinate is benefiting from all those who do, and I agree. They will go on to say that it’s not fair that most people accept the risk of vaccines in order to be protected from the diseases, for the good of society. To that, I will answer, “Wait, you are saying that most people will accept the WHAT of WHAT? The risk of vaccines? But wait, there is no risk, right? That’s what you’ve been preaching. So, if there’s no risk to vaccines, then there’s no problem if you get them for your child and another family doesn’t. Your child is protected.”

Either there’s NO risk to vaccinating, so you can’t bring up such a point, OR, there IS risk to vaccinating and that’s the very thing that anti-vaxers are trying to get across in the first place. Pro-vaxers can’t make both points.

Bottom Line: Because there will always be those who don’t vaccinate, we’d better figure out a way to get along and love each other, because there’s only one planet (for now). Mars colony is a long time away.

I love to write things that are funny, fun, controversial, fun, stupid, pointless, fun, and funny. I hate it when I have to get serious. I want to get back to writing stupid stories about funny people in my office. But this is a serious issue, one that isn’t going away, and one in which nobody seems to be making any progress toward reaching an understanding. The answer won’t be to make everyone vaccinate, neither should the answer be to allow diseases to run rampant and kill people left and right. The answer needs to be somewhere in the middle, and it needs to include love, understanding, and calm-headed people who will actually stop and listen to each other.

Taking tomorrow off.

Dr. Bob

So much typing and so much bullshit.

I just want to point out that if enough people refuse vaccination you will get more vaccine-preventable diseases as many are extremely contagious. One of the few that isn’t tetanus. According to Dr. Offit, kids who are likely to react to vaccines are also likely to react to such diseases. So they are the ones who really are going to be in trouble should measles return. A decent doctor would point this out. A pandering slimeball . . .

If your child really is at risk from vaccines the last thing you really want to do is lobby against them. My kids and I and my family have gotten three doses of the MMR. You know what this means? It means that we’ve got about 99% chance of not getting measles. A child who is unvaccinated because they can’t get vaccinated will have a roughly 90% chance of getting measles. So the only rational stance here is to beg others who can get vaccinated to get vaccinated. That’s the only thing that will stop measles: herd immunity.

I get vaccinated. You get vaccinated. Measles can’t find a host so it dies. No more measles. But you don’t vaccinated and then the neighbor’s kids don’t vaccinated and we get measles. Or at least some of us do. Until the use of the vaccine, there were literally thousands of cases each year and thousands of hospitalizations in the US alone. We had about 500 dead people as a result.

Since then we’ve had no deaths and very few hospitalizations. And it’s all from vaccination. Not cleaner sanitation or organic food. Vaccination. It’s the only thing that will stop diseases like measles. It’s unreal that a doctor dares refuse to tell people this and dares to pretend that vaccination – rather than vaccine-preventable diseases – is the really risky venture. If you deliberately turn you face away from this you are choosing to deliberately bring disease in my community. You are not worthy of respect. You are not a good person. And you are damned well not being discriminated against when I take steps to protect myself and my family and my community from your foolish, callous and truly stupid behavior.

[LavenderBlue]

Oh my.

I wrote this Dr. Sears’s Facebook page:

In case you didn’t see my comment the first time on the other thread, I will repost it:

I understand you’re a busy person Dr. Bob. Would you be okay with those of us who aren’t as busy perhaps writing up an article for you to post on this Facebook page about the kinds of common misconceptions some of your followers have been posting about vaccines?

Surely your followers would listen if you pointed out how right we are? All you’d have to do is agree is that our facts are right. Is that something you might be interested in letting us do? For the good of the community? To help make sure people are protecting little babies and those with cancer?

He wrote back:

Dr. Bob Sears Hello. I wouldn’t really post something written by someone else. I feel like I accurately cover many of the misconceptions in the book. But I am open, and if you want to write something and post it with a really big note at the top that says Dr. Bob Asked Us To Write This, I can then read it and comment. But I wouldn’t post it as an actual post. Actually, hey, what we could do IS post it as a post, and have me comment too as to what I agree with and what I don’t. So, start with putting it up here somewhere, and then I can go from there

What do you think? Should I take him up on his offer?

[BrainGlutton]

It appears that measles is much easier to contain than sleazles.

[snowthx]

@LavenderBlue

Oh my.

I wrote this Dr. Sears’s Facebook page:

He wrote back:

What do you think? Should I take him up on his offer?

IMHO You have the experience and knowledge to mop the floor with him. Just make sure you are not playing into his hand - only do this if you know you can win (whatever you consider winning).

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@BrainGlutton

I’ve been to both parks; WDW is newer, bigger, nicer and has more stuff.

Can’t Drink Around The World at Disneyland, can you hippies?

[Bam_Boo_Gut]

Dude’s getting undressed on his wedding night. He pulls off his socks and shoes. His new wife gasps: ‘What happened to your toes?’ ‘I never got the vaccination, so I got tolio’ he explains, taking off his trousers. She gasps again ‘What’s up with your knees?’ ‘Yeah, never got the kneasles jab either …’

He whips off his underoos and she gasps again: ‘Don’t tell me, smallcox.’

[BrainGlutton]

@Boyo_Jim

It’s those bastards Sneezy and Drippy who’re spreading it.

Don’t forget Pocahowevamuchasyuwantas, she was always a whore.

[grude]

@China_Guy

Just curious if this is actually true? I’m assuming most are 3rd world countries with low vaccination rates (without checking places like Pakistan and Niger). Most folks from those places can’t get visa’s much less go to Disneyland. Andrew Wakefield should be tarred and feathered.

I think we need a new term because third world covers everything from slightly below US mean income, all the way to failed state.

A lot of places on the upper end of the scale probably have higher than US vaccination rates due to universal healthcare, or they just give the immunizations at schools like literally vaccinate every student.

[BrainGlutton]

@Tatterdemalion

Mmmmm… Betty Boop!

I’d go with Betty, but I’d be thinking of Wilma.

[Tatterdemalion]

@BrainGlutton

I’d go with Betty, but I’d be thinking of Wilma.

She’s not bad. She’s just drawn that way.

[2ManyTacos]

Given that I live in SoCal, this entire ordeal has been really interesting to me personally. I’m also an annual passholder at Disneyland who goes all the friggin’ time - Hell, I was last there about two weeks ago - so this measles stuff is doubly hitting home in my case.

Look, anybody who has ever been to DL (& presumably DW as well, though I’ve never gone there) would realize that the potential for such a park-borne outbreak is ridiculously obvious. Seriously, even on the dullest of days at DL, there’s still bound to be several thousand people packed together between DL itself & its sister park CA Adventure. In the lines for the rides, you’ll almost certainly be waiting in close proximity alongside several other complete strangers, & at night you’ll be herded like cattle in HUGE (and packed) crowds in various parts of the park after most areas are closed for the nightly fireworks displays.

All of which is to say, Disneyland & mounds & mounds & MOUNDS of people go together like a knife through butter, so it isn’t altogether surprising that something like this measles outbreak would eventually happen. I’m a total Disneyland fanatic, though, & I haven’t been dissuaded in the slightest from going since all this hit the news.

That said, yeah, I place a lot of blame for this fiasco on all of these anti-vaccination lunatics.

[BrainGlutton]

@2ManyTacos

Given that I live in SoCal, this entire ordeal has been really interesting to me personally. I’m also an annual passholder at Disneyland who goes all the friggin’ time - Hell, I was last there about two weeks ago - so this measles stuff is doubly hitting home in my case.

Don’t worry, though, the symptoms of measles are easy to spot. First, you might notice air going in and out of your lungs, through your nose and/or mouth; this is the first warning sign. Second, if you press your fingers to your wrist or to either side of your neck (just under the jaw-corner), you might feel your flesh throbbing rhythmically. This is a very serious warning sign of measles. Third, you might find yourself under a mysterious compulsion to post on messageboards. By this stage, the condition is invariably untreatable and fatal, and there is nothing left for you to do but make up a list of people you want to bite.

[andros]

@BrainGlutton

I’d go with Betty, but I’d be thinking of Wilma.

She’ll never leave Fred, and you know it.

[kaylasdad99]

@BrainGlutton

I’ve been to both parks; WDW is newer, bigger, nicer and has more stuff.

And no Matterhorn bobsleds, so fuck 'em.

[AnaMen]

@LavenderBlue

The idea was to write a book and walk away . . . um yeah.

I am mad at him because I personally wrote to him:

**“Dr. Sears, there’s a lot of misinformation about vaccines in this thread. Could you please help correct some of this misinformation? Thank you.” **

Dr. Putz replied to me:

“Hey I just don’t have the time to do that. I work full time in the office and have three kids and a wife. I just have to leave the debating to those who have time.”

Those are his actual words. So Dr. Putz has the time to write up crap but he won’t take the time to correct misconceptions about his crap.

He did have time to write up the following awful response. Bear in mind this isn’t just any doctor. This is the son of a famous pediatrician. His father is very respected. The son decided to capitalize on his father’s fame by pandering to anti-vaxxers. He wrote a book in which in he promotes an alternative vaccine schedule. This schedule has no basis in fact. In an article in the American Academy of Pediatrics, Dr. Paul Offitt pointed out the problems with this schedule.

Dr. Bob’s response to his post was to throw a hissy fit on Facebook.

If you read the comments on his Facebook page, you’ll see that people are NOT getting the vaccine. Here’s a man who could correct this problem. He could write up a post on common vaccine misconceptions. They would listen to him. And what does he do? ignores them. He could even pay a student a lousy twenty bucks to do it for him. But he won’t. This is the face of a measles promoter in our society. This is a doctor, a respected doctor from a respected family. And he’s refusing to help protect our society against the spread of a nasty disease.

Your link only goes to an abstract. The real paper is not available to the public on that site.
Does it give any reasons against the “Sears schedule” beyond it involving more trips to the doctor and taking longer to be completed? Compared to eschewing vaccinations altogether, a delay in finishing the series, if the child is not in preschool/daycare/exposed to unvaccinated people, sounds like it should be an acceptable compromise.
Maybe Dr. Bob Sears has said or done something else outrageous in the past that has inspired your hatred, but based on what you’ve posted here, your level of vitriol seems over the top. You’re focusing only on the parents who would have gotten all vaccinations “on schedule” possibly delaying some instead of considering the anti-vax parents he is getting to vaccinate at all.

[Jackmannii]

@AnaMen

Compared to eschewing vaccinations altogether, a delay in finishing the series, if the child is not in preschool/daycare/exposed to unvaccinated people, sounds like it should be an acceptable compromise.

Well yeah, if you lock the kid up in the house and don’t permit entry of any at-risk children or adults (like Grandma who’s on chemotherapy and vulnerable to a vaccine-preventable disease), then that would cut the risk considerably. Not real practical however.

Maybe Dr. Bob Sears has said or done something else outrageous in the past that has inspired your hatred, but based on what you’ve posted here, your level of vitriol seems over the top.

I suggest you check out what Dr. Bob has been saying about the current measles outbreak centered on Disneyland (which, after all, inspired this thread) and his statements minimizing the seriousness of the illness and “forgetting” to mention vaccination as important in controlling its spread. Then you can look into all the other dumb things Dr. Bob has said to encourage antivax attitudes, starting here:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

Oh, and here’s a link to a PDF of an article explaining what’s wrong with Dr. Bob’s “alternative” vaccine schedule:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full.pdf