That would be so wrong.
For everyone who isn’t AnaMen.
Vaccines are pretty much as close as it gets to one hundred percent good. The vaccine schedule isn’t decided on the basis of throwing darts at things. It is decided by scientists and health officials for each country in order to help make sure that each child who gets the shots will have maximum protection and minimal risk of side effects.
Three needle shots don’t exist to torture children or to make money for pharm companies. They’re done so that the MMR and almost every single person who gets those shots will be protected against three nasty diseases.
Measles is a rotten disease. Before vaccines, measles caused 50,000 hospitalizations in the US alone and hundreds of deaths, mostly of kids. Roald Dahl lost his poor daughter to measles. Mumps is an unpleasant condition that can cause a boy’s testicles to swell up and cause pain for weeks at a time. Rubella attacks in the womb. When a baby catches it in the womb, the baby runs a huge risk of being born with significant impairments. Actress Gene Tierney had her heart broken by the fact that a fan broke quarantine and caused her baby to be born with serious medical problems as a result of congenital rubella syndrome.
These disease aren’t made up. They’re nasty, miserable, evil little bugs. There is nothing to be gained with a bout of them. In the course of my advocacy of this issue, I have come to know people who speak of the heartbreak of the results of lack of access to vaccines or not getting them. I know someone, an Australian woman, who lost her son Jesse in the course of a single weekend to chicken pox. He was nine when he died. NINE. Her grief is so painful that the only outlet for it has been vaccine advocacy.
I know another woman who survived polio and an iron lung. I know another who lost a child to pertussis, a nasty killer of babies. I know still another person who lost hearing from the flu and another who nearly died from it. One of our own beloved members died from the flu.
For Dr. Sears, a man with a famous name, a pediatrician with access to an audience, to attempt to turn people away from this miracle, to imply that the risks of vaccination are just as great as the risks of terrible diseases, to pander to patient’s worst fears, to pretend that vaccines are in some way dangerous – is for him to betray his profession and the people who rely on him in the worst way possible.
He lies to patients. He tells them that doctors are stupid and they are smart even when they are making the dumbest possible choices. In the process he exposes the community and all of us to suffering that does not have to exist, to diseases that could be stopped. Measles, for example, could be eradicated as we have done with smallpox. But in his world, the world of lies, the cost of doing so requires him to tell the truth to parents and that is not something he thinks advisable.
If he is held in contempt by many people it is because he deserves it. He gives a cover to quacks and charlatans, to people who want to lie to parents and tell them that the best thing they can do is not vaccines but homeopathy or bleach enemas. Here he is standing proudly with Andrew Wakefield, a man who caused huge problems in the UK with his own pack of lies.
So yeah he annoys me. He bugs me. He bothers me. Because I get to see people believe his own pack of lies. I have listened while they explain to me to how smart they are to follow the good doctor’s lies and follow his special vaccine schedule while how dumb I am to be a sheeple who dares listen to the CDC. This is kind pandering to people’s worst instincts should not be acceptable here. It should not garner thousands of likes on Facebook or allow the author to sell hundreds of thousands of copies of his book to the public as he lies to them. He is a disgrace to his profession. The fact that he is not called out for it more, let alone sanctioned by his colleagues, is evidence not just of his failures but our own.
- The actual FACT is that vaccinations DO present SOME risks. This is absolutely not denied by the CDC.
- The diseases ALSO present risks.
- The advantages of most of the vaccinations OUTWEIGH the risks (for most people), so the best choice is to get most of the vaccinations.
Unfortunately, anyone that even acknowledges that number 1 is true is labeled as an ant-vaxxing enemy of the people, a moron, etc.
By saying “most” in number 3, I must also be an anti-vaxxing troll/moron/dog-whistling enemy of the people. However, the CDC would also back me up here. If you are in an area that does not have smallpox, for instance, they do not recommend you get this vaccination. Likewise for Yellow Fever, which a regular doctor will not even stock.
Ever try to get a rabies vaccination? The cost will blow your mind and it is ONLY recommended for people at high risk.
So rest assured, I am not referring to the MMR, DTap, etc. when I qualify my statement.
It’s quite disingenuous to accuse people of lying when they acknowledge that vaccinations do pose a certain small risk of side effects. I’m sorry if you think that this acknowledgement is tantamount to saying vaccinations should be avoided.
Ladders apparently cause 164,000 emergency room visits and 300 deaths yearly in the US alone. Most of the deaths are from falls of less than ten feet. Those emergency room visits surely cost the nation some serious cash. Those deaths could clearly have been prevented, had proper ladder safety measures been taken. We could have mandatory ladder safety education, ladder use licensing, or maybe do away with ladders entirely and save some lives.
I could go interview some ladder-injured people or ladder-widows and ladder-orphans and tug at your heart strings, but that would seem kind of silly wouldn’t it?
We accept that some people are just going to die because of ladders and it can’t be helped. We shrug off those 300 yearly deaths and 164,000 yearly serious injuries.
Not even one person dies in the US yearly because of measles. I get vaccinated because I want zero people to get measles, so I will do what I can at minimal expense/risk to myself. The reality truly is that the risk of death by measles here in the US is tiny, so the hysteria and insults over someone simply acknowledging that fact is dumb.
Risk of dying of measles: extremely tiny.
Risk of suffering a serious reaction to the measles vaccination: even more tiny.
Reasonable response: getting vaccinated in spite of the tiny risk.
Unreasonable response: becoming hysterical and slinging insults at anyone that dares imply that any vaccination is not 100% safe.
That is NOT how Dr. Sears presents this issue, AnaMen. If you were an honest poster and a decent human being, rather than a nasty, trolling, crude, obnoxious jerk who seems largely interested in presenting himself as a better person than the rest of us unenlightened bitter sheeple . . . you would admit this.
Again you try to paint me as a Dr. Sears supporter, in spite of me repeatedly clarifying that I barely know anything about the guy. He could well be everything you say. I’ve never met him. I have read none of his books. There is nothing for me to “admit” with regard to this stranger.
You keep providing opinions and calling them facts.
You keep calling me names and insulting me, making unfounded personal attacks, and claiming I hold opinions that I don’t.
I am a decent human being, and I’m sure most people are. I make no claims of being better than anyone, whatever that means, and the person who keeps talking about “sheeple” is you. The person calling names is you. Maybe you are also a decent human being, but you haven’t been acting like one.
And yet…
Using polite language does not a nice person make. You’re acting just like a little kid. You are deliberately getting ::thisclose:: and then claiming “But I’m not touching her.” You asked questions, she answered, you continue to poke at her. Verdict: ass.
Of course, I support regular vaccines on a researched schedule approved by the CDC. I had the measles, chickenpox, mumps. They all sucked. My kids were lucky enough to avoid the mumps and measles due to vaccines, and I am forever grateful. They unfortunately had the chickenpox and that was horrible for them to endure. If everyone does their part, my grandkids may avoid all three. They have been vaccinated.
My vaccinations are up to date because I don’t want to give anybody whooping cough when it comes to town. One of my friends cannot have the tetanus shot due to a bad reaction, and he worries constantly when we are working on demo projects. I, on the other hand, can walk around my yard barefoot and know that I am unlikely to get tetanus from something I may step on because I have been recently vaccinated.
None of which has anything to do with the way you are acting in this thread. It’s okay; this is the Pit. Your asshole behavior, like LavenderBlue’s name-calling in response to your jabs, is allowed here. Just don’t think you are making some kind of compelling point when it’s obvious that all you are doing is taunting someone.
Thanks for sharing your opinion of the situation.
I simply don’t see it the way you do. She responds, but doesn’t actually answer questions, instead preferring personal insults and attacks. If that’s all she can manage, so be it.
My views on the vaccination “debate” don’t seem even remotely radical to me, but apparently they are, so whatever. If you don’t understand what I’ve said, that’s not my problem.
This is why you look like a troll. You ignore or dismiss the info I present, insult me and make stupid statements in praise of people like Sears.
Some examples of posts I wrote filled with massive amounts of information that answer your questions:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18075730&postcount=44
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18075756&postcount=47
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18075979&postcount=56
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18076086&postcount=65
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18076381&postcount=77
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18076397&postcount=79
And still it’s all “unbacked opinion” (post 66) and Salon and some blogs to you (post 82).
At one point you natter on about how we need to have better advertisements to target anti-vaxxers but when I point out such advertising does not work (post 77) you say nothing.
Your basic argument is that there are nuances that aren’t being discussed. Yet when I provide evidence that there really isn’t much nuance in getting the tetanus shot contrary to the lies Dr. Sears tells, you just dismiss it and screech about whether the idiot mean to deliberately lie or he’s just stupid and lazy.
You are tolling plain and simple. You have brought nothing to this discussion other than a defense of someone even you admit you barely known anything about. You basically present yourself as someone above this debate who is not like those who just enter this debate to claim, “superiority over the non-vaxxing dummies,” (post 74) but you clearly think you’re above “bitter and troubled individual(s)” like me.
You also admit you know nothing about Dr. Sears (post 125) So why don’t you run along, go read his stupid book as you said you were going to do (post 102) and and leave the grown ups alone to have fun with mockery in a place meant for such actions.
If I said we need BETTER marketing than we have, how can you claim we already have that and it doesn’t work? I didn’t address this because it seemed obvious that we don’t have anything better than we have. We have what we have, and it doesn’t work. Look, we agree!
Marketing works. It’s a gazillion dollar industry (I’m not looking up the real number–we both know it’s big bucks). It accounts for an enormous amount of the wanting and the spending in the US’ consumeristic society and a lot of the stuff our eyes skim over and our ears try to block out daily. It’s guiding people’s actions, for better or worse. To deny that it’s an effective tool is just silly.
Neonatal tetanus is mostly caused by umbilical cord infection. We don’t generally grab a rusty pair of scissors out of a pile of pig manure to cut the cord here in the US, so it’s not all that common here.
I’ll check out those links later, but I’m reading Dr. Sears’ book at the moment. Don’t worry, I did not buy it. I read fast, so this won’t take long.
Have you read it?
Marketing doesn’t work AnaMen. The best thing to do with anti-vaxers is quarantine. It’s completely legal as I pointed out in a prior post. It’s what we do for kids who can’t get vaccinated for vaccine-preventable diseases for medical reasons when a vaccine-preventable disease breaks oout. The last thing to do is give solace to anti-vaxers in any way, shape or form by implying they have a valid point of view. Doing so implies to others that they deserve a place to be heard. We don’t do that with Holocaust deniers or 9-11 idiots or Birthers. Why do we need to do with anti-vaxers?
And no, I am not going to read Dr. Sears’s book. I get enough grief reading his dreadful Facebook posts quoted on various forums. You might want to go and actually read the comments there. Because they’re all about bullshit on vaccines, bullshit that Dr. Sears goes out of his way to ignore and fails to address. That’s the difference between Dr. Offit and Dr. Sears. When I want the truth on this subject, I go and email Dr. Offit or read one of his books. He treats me like an adult capable of understanding adult info. Dr. Sears treats people like morons incapable of understanding anything.
LB, heed the wise words of GBS “I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
Oh, stop being such a pussy.
Anti-vaxxers are just people who love and care about their children and are trying to do what’s best for them in light of their interpretation of the facts. They aren’t failing to vaccinate out of spite or hatefulness.
So far Dr. Sears’ book seems thoughtful and balanced, by which I do not mean he indicates that vaccinating or not are simply two equally-valid approaches. He carefully goes through the specific common objections to each vaccination. He repeatedly comes down on the side of vaccination.
The very first sentence of the book is “I am a pro-vaccine doctor.” I know you believe he is just pretending this, but I’m afraid the real problem is not that he lies or is inaccurate, but that he tells some inconvenient truths.
If I grabbed 10,000 random Americans and gave them IQ tests, then split them into two random groups, we wouldn’t be too shocked if one group’s average was a few points off from the other. If I instead subdivided them by race and it turned out one race’s average was a few points lower, we’d probably all just prefer I shut up about that, regardless of it being true. What positive end can come from me highlighting this fact, after all?
Measles is rare in the US and death from it is rare in the US. That isn’t a lie, it’s just not a truth that encourages vaccination, so pro-vaxxers don’t want anyone to say it. So far this book has correctly credited vaccinations with eliminating and limiting diseases and the author has expressed concern that the diseases could come back.
The author claims the American Academy of Pediatrics (Red Book, 2009) recommends that pediatricians advise vaccine-refusers to “develop a schedule that spaces the vaccines out.” Unfortunately I cannot confirm whether he is being truthful here as I am still not a pediatrician and thus have no access to that publication.
I don’t see what I could gain from reading comments on Dr. Sears’ Facebook page. I’m trying to determine whether he is proposing reasonable vaccination compromises or is a secret anti-vaxxer, not whether he has a lot of fans who are poorly informed. I am happy to take your word for that.
I also took a brief look into Dr. William Sears’ famous The Baby Book. Sorry, but on page 640 of this 2013 edition, he directly defers to your enemy’s Vaccine Book.
Check out the WHO website factsheet. Measles
“Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.”
"Accelerated immunization activities have had a major impact on reducing measles deaths. During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths. Global measles deaths have decreased by 75% from an estimated 544 200 in 2000 to 145 700 in 2013. "
Personally, I really hope that public and private schools enforce a 21 day non-school attendance for kids that aren’t vaccinated as an incentive. IN other words, market the personal downside more for non vaccination
I can’t help but worry for the poor kids who loony parents will use that as further excuse to homeschool to protect them from the dangers of the outside world. Punishing the kids for who their parents are is a societal step backwards.
As for that “rare” disease, measles:
Last year we had 644 cases reported. That’s more than three times the number for any previous year going back to 2001. So far in 2015 we’ve exceeded the annual number for most of those years, and we’re still only in January.
Looks to me like there’s cause for concern.
AnaMen is starting to remind me of EneMan (seen here at the Great Wall of Ignorance).
Measles IS very rare. Out of 322,583,000 people in the US, only 644 reported measles. Do the math.
These two statements are not the same though:
- Measles is very rare.
- Measles is very rare, so there is no cause for concern.
The first statement is true.
The second is false. Its second part is actually NOT built into the first.
And yes, I’m sure I “remind” you of everyone and everything bad that you disagree with. We all meet by the reservoir.
I don’t either, but the AAP in 2005 was very clear that they support the current vaccination schedule, and any deviation from that should be a second-to-last resort. (The last resort is involving the State in forcing immunization, for children at high risk, such as those in a community with low vaccination rates.) And they do not endorse a delayed or alternate schedule as an equally effective or safe technique, they say to get what vaccines you can in the child, as soon as you can talk the parent into each one, even if you can’t talk them into all of them.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/115/5/1428.full
They reaffirmed this position in 2013: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/131/5/e1696.full
So if Dr. Sears is presenting that as the AAP recommends a delayed vaccination schedule for vaccine refusers, then you’ve identified another example of his shady tactics. They don’t recommend it, they don’t endorse his or any other delayed schedule, they reluctantly allow that it’s better to vaccinate off of any schedule if that’s the best you can do. But this is what’s so frustrating about how he writes. He’s a total CYA artist. He’s thisclose to the truth, but words things in such a way as to make it appear as though he and his delayed vaccination schedule have got scientific and professional support where none exists.
No, I did not mean to imply that Sears presented his schedule (or any delayed or alternate schedule) as recommended or endorsed in any way by the AAP. Interestingly, he presents their schedule over a dozen times in his book. He simply mentions that in the case of vax-refusal they recommend giving information to convince them to vaccinate and ultimately to do delayed vaccination if you can at least get them to do that.
I don’t have the book, so cannot quote directly, unfortunately.
I guess you could see that as CYA, but I’m inclined to take it at face value. Absent any reason not to interpret what he says literally, he does not oppose vaccinations.