Do all US classrooms have national and regional flags hanging?

[Musicat]

@cochrane

@hogarth

Not to mention that when I was growing up (in Saskatchewan), we didn’t pledge allegiance to a flag, we addressed our comments to our Father who wast in heaven (who was much more bad-ass than a mere piece of cloth).

We used to do that in Pennsylvania, but the Supreme Court put an end to that in 1963. (For the whole U.S., as a matter of fact.)

It wasn’t needed anymore, since they inserted God into the Pledge in the 50’s.

[Northern_Piper]

@Acsenray

There’s no such thing as the “national security” of a state government or treason against a state government. A resident of a state owes the state conformance with its laws, but not loyalty.

Tell that to John Brown, who was convicted of treason against the state of Virginia for the raid on Harper’s Ferry and executed accordingly.

[Northern_Piper]

And to Thomas Dorr, convicted of treason against the state of Rhode Island and sentenced to solitary confinement at hard labor for life (later commuted).

[Northern_Piper]

And then there’s the fact that the US Constitution explicitly recognises both federal and state citizenship, in the 14th Amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

One of the hallmarks of citizenship is the concept of fealty or loyalty to the state of one’s citizenship.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Not really. You don’t have to do anything to be a citizen of any of the several states. You just show up and rent a house or pitch a tent or whatever.

Every classroom in the Florida schools I attended included a US flag, but only the history classrooms had state flags. The schools all had Florida flags flying out front along with the US flag though. Us Americans and our flags.

[Acsenray]

@Northern_Piper

Tell that to John Brown, who was convicted of treason against the state of Virginia for the raid on Harper’s Ferry and executed accordingly.

@Northern_Piper

And to Thomas Dorr, convicted of treason against the state of Rhode Island and sentenced to solitary confinement at hard labor for life (later commuted).

And it’s important to note that both of these occurred before the Civil War. The idea that a state is a traditional national sovereign that is owed loyalty or fealty of its citizens has been defunct for some time now. No state can call upon your loyalty to draft you into the militia to go to war against another state.

“Citizenship” in the state-level sense is not the same thing as being a U.S. citizen. States don’t get to grant or withhold citizenship from individuals. States don’t issue passports.

[Kenm]

I wonder how many Plege-of-Allegiance, salute-the-flag but save-a-buck Stars and Stripes in school rooms are made in China, India or the Philippines. Or is there a law against the possibility?

The Canadian government’s indoctrination of children didn’t work for me.

Each morning we had to sing O Canada and recite the Lord’s Prayer (I assume the Protestant version, though who knows), then sing the first verse of God Save the Queen at the end of the school day.

Now, if I were Og, I’d declare religion illegal and kick the monarchy out. The national anthem’s lyrics have changed anyway (proving nothing is sacred except, perhaps, political correctness ), as has the flag. It’s past time to finish the job.

[Acsenray]

@Kenm

I wonder how many Plege-of-Allegiance, salute-the-flag but save-a-buck Stars and Stripes in school rooms are made in China, India or the Philippines. Or is there a law against the possibility?

There’s no law against it. I have seen many flags made abroad, especially the smaller ones.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@Kenm

I wonder how many Plege-of-Allegiance, salute-the-flag but save-a-buck Stars and Stripes in school rooms are made in China, India or the Philippines. Or is there a law against the possibility?

@Acsenray

There’s no law against it. I have seen many flags made abroad, especially the smaller ones.

Here in Minnesota, we have a law prohibiting businesses from selling US flags that are made in foreign countries (or flag-related stuff. like flag lapel pins). It’s a misdemeanor offense. But in the 5 years it’s been in effect, I’ve never heard of it being enforced.

More common is government bodies requiring that all flags bought with tax money are American-made. Some local government employee purchasing people in Minnesota have been publicly attacked and reprimanded for purchasing foreign-made flags. There are also a few other states that have passed this requirement into law.
Several years before this, at the MN state Democratic (DFL) party Convention, supporters of a candidate for state office passed out small, tabletop US flags to each delegation table, while the candidate was making his speech, talking about patriotism and jobs. Meanwhile, union delegates were going around to each table, pointing out the small stickers on each of those flags saying “Made in China”. His campaign eventually had to send people around picking up those flags.

Afterwards, people said that incident caused him to lose the endorsement battle to another candidate. I think he would have lost anyway, but this certainly didn’t help him.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@Acsenray

There’s no such thing as the “national security” of a state government or treason against a state government. A resident of a state owes the state conformance with its laws, but not loyalty.

@Northern_Piper

Tell that to John Brown, who was convicted of treason against the state of Virginia for the raid on Harper’s Ferry and executed accordingly.

And John Brown was not even a resident of Virginia.

He was charged with this so the Southern authorities could make sure he was tried in a local Virginia state court by a southern jury, rather than in a Federal Court. Even though the actions had taken place on Federal property.

[Captain_Amazing]

e was charged with this so the Southern authorities could make sure he was tried in a local Virginia state court by a southern jury, rather than in a Federal Court. Even though the actions had taken place on Federal property.

They also took hostages in and around Harpers Ferry itself, off the armory.

Virginia still has a treason law:

Treason shall consist only in:

(1) Levying war against the Commonwealth;

(2) Adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort;

(3) Establishing, without authority of the legislature, any government within its limits separate from the existing government;

(4) Holding or executing, in such usurped government, any office, or professing allegiance or fidelity to it; or

(5) Resisting the execution of the laws under color of its authority.

Such treason, if proved by the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or by confession in court, shall be punishable as a Class 2 felony.

So do Alabama, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, and probably more, but I stopped looking after Kentucky.

[caveman]

@Captain_Amazing

Five times doth thy sevens show,
for Corsicana, happy home.
Oh glorious seat of Navarro,
Never more thy sons shall roam.

What? No mention of Corsicana’s primary cash crop: fruitcake?

[Captain_Amazing]

In December, we bid you near
To celebrate the Savior’s birth
to join with us in Christmas cheer
and enjoy the blessings of the earth

Each December we do bake
We gather up our nuts and fruit
With that bounty, make a cake
with candied cherries and with suet.

But come, we urge, all year round
And come enjoy Lake Halpert Dam
And share with all what you have found
(Just don’t mention Todd Willingham).

[caveman]

@Captain_Amazing

In December, we bid you near
To celebrate the Savior’s birth
to join with us in Christmas cheer
and enjoy the blessings of the earth

Each December we do bake
We gather up our nuts and fruit
With that bounty, make a cake
with candied cherries and with suet.

But come, we urge, all year round
And come enjoy Lake Halpert Dam
And share with all what you have found
(Just don’t mention Todd Willingham).

SO much win.

[Saint_Cad]

@Acsenray

There’s no such thing as the “national security” of a state government or treason against a state government. A resident of a state owes the state conformance with its laws, but not loyalty.

Colorado Revised Statutes
18-11-101. Treason.
(1) A person commits treason if he levies war against the state of Colorado or adheres to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless upon the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act or upon confession in open court.
(2) Treason is a class 1 felony.

I know other states have similar treason laws

[Acsenray]

Yeah, I’d like to see that statute enforced.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Acsenray

Yeah, I’d like to see that statute enforced.

It’s been a while.

While treason against the United States is necessarily treason against every state as well, the reverse is not true. Treason against a state is not necessarily treason against the United States. There have not been many recent instances of trials for treason or sedition against an individual state of the United States, but there were frequent instances in the early history of this country. The most renowned one was the trial and conviction of Thomas W. Dorr by a court of the state of Rhode Island, about 1841. When Rhode Island declared its independence of Great Britain and became one of the United States, it chose to continue the charter granted to it by Charles II in 1660 as its fundamental law. One of its provisions limited the right to vote to those owning property of a substantial amount. The charter contained no provision for its amendment. Dorr and his followers agitated for a new constitution containing a broadening of the base of franchise. The established government refused to take any action to call a constitutional stitutional convention. This led to violence, and Dorr and his associates called a popular convention, which adopted a constitution for the state, and then made an unsuccessful attempt to seize the state arsenal. This became known as Dorr’s Rebellion. After the rebellion was put down, Dorr was indicted for treason in the state court, found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment. An effort was made to invoke the jurisdiction of the United States Supreme Court to review his conviction, but the effect failed. Ex parte Dorr, 3 How. 103, 44 U.S. 103, 11 L.Ed. 514. Neither in that case nor in the subsequent case of Luther v. Borden, 7 How. 1, 48 U.S. 1, 12 L.Ed. 581, growing out of the same rebellion, did the United States Supreme Court say or intimate that Rhode Island had acted beyond its jurisdiction.

[my bolding]

State v. Raley, 60 O.O. 35, 136 N.E.2d 295, 306 (Ohio Ct. App. 1954) aff’d sub nom. State v. Morgan, 164 Ohio St. 529, 133 N.E.2d 104 (1956) vacated sub nom. Raley v. State of Ohio, 354 U.S. 929 (1957) and vacated sub nom. Morgan v. State of Ohio, 354 U.S. 929 (1957)

There may be treason against a state by levying war which is aimed altogether against the sovereignty of the state; as would be the case if the object of an assembly of persons met with force were to overturn the government or constitution of the state, or to prevent the due exercise of its sovereign powers, or to resist the execution of any one or more of its general laws, without any intention to intermeddle with the relations of the state with the national government, or to displace the national laws or sovereignty therein.

In re Charge to Grand Jury, 30 F. Cas. 1046 (C.C.D.R.I. 1842)

Indeed it must not be forgotten that in this case no treason against the State of West Virginia, whose courts are invoked to consider the subject, has been either proved or confessed, and the only acts stated that could amount to the crime of treason were perpetrated against the United States, and for which the party has been pardoned by that government. Now it would be straining the point too far to hold, as contended for, that the war being waged against the United States, of which the State of West Virginia was one, was, therefore, waged against her in the sense contemplated in the statute against treason, and that, therefore, the acts in question were treason against the State and felony within statute. The People vs. Lynch and others, 11 John., 549. For while it is not intended to deny that the same act might constitute treason against the United States and also against the State, and the traitor be held responsible to each for his treason, respectively, yet, to constitute treason against the State, it is not enough to wage war against the United States generally or collectively,or as component parts of the national Union, but it must be done directly against the State, in particular, by invading her territory, attacking her citizens, subverting her government and laws, or attempting her destruction by force, &c., and that too by a citizen of the State; for none but her citizens owe her allegiance, and are, therefore, bound by that allegiance to protect and defend her against all assaults of her enemies.

Ex parte Quarrier, 2 W. Va. 569, 571-72 (1866) (finding that no act of treason against the state of West Virginia had occurred, but clearly contemplating that one could have).

[Saint_Cad]

In fact, had they lost wouldn’t the Wheeling Convention been considered treason against Virginia even though it was in a way the antithesis of treason against the United States?

[elmwood]

Mid-late 1970s, Catholic elementary school. Said the Pledge at the start of every school day. US flags in every classroom.

Early 1980s, urban public high school. Pledge in the morning in homeroom. Sang the National Anthem at the start of assemblies and pep rallies, but it was something of a school tradition not typical of other public schools in the district. We added our own cymbal sounds (“Oh say can you see TSSH by the dawn’s early light TSSH”). US flag in every classroom; US, Canada and New York state flag in the auditorium.

College/university, mid-late 1980s. No flags in any classroom, no Pledge. US, Canada and NY flags in a few prominent spots on campus.

[JBDivmstr]

@Bytegeist

…
There are counties with their own flags??

I’m pretty sure that Harris County (Texas) doesn’t have a flag, but the City of Houston does have a flag.