Kids in school refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?!

Great Debates
1

I read a short clip in an article where it was mentioned that teachers in school can’t even get some students to stand for the pledge of allegiance. I thought, what the f**k? There are some things you just do! No excuses. After a bit of thinking about it all, I figured that any kid not willing to stand during the Pledge, should be dragged down to the principals office and disciplined.

I guess children’s rights are OK, but that flag is the symbol of the United States, which gives them the freedom to have rights in the first place! I mean, Dude! There is such as thing as respect! There is such a thing as honoring those who have laid down their lives to give those kids the right to show up in school dressed like clowns and get all surly about everything.

The Flag stands for those who have gone before to keep us free, whether or not you agree with their actions. A kid who refuses to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance is in essence, spitting on the flag! In the 80s man, I was watching a protest and some dude spit on the flag and stomped it in the dirt and I busted his head. I spent the night in jail, and sure he has the right to do what he did but I’ve the right to defend the honor of the Flag!

I was never charged with anything.

You might not agree with everything which has gone on in the States, but you live in a free land because of most of it, have the right to do almost anything and say anything you want. You got a kid in school that you don’t care if he stands for the pledge or not, then maybe you need to consider moving elsewhere, like Somalia, Egypt, Cuba, or Russia.

I’m stunned that the school let these kids get away with that. When I was in school, we all stood and recited the pledge. The only time I can understand a kid not standing for it is if he or she is not an American citizen, but even then, it wouldn’t hurt to stand out of respect and courtesy.

2

No. A kid who refuses to stand for the pledge of allegiance is, in essence, not standing to say the pledge.

The kid could have reasons as disparate as a religious belief that pledging the flag was the equivalent of idolatry, or that reciting “one nation, under (the Christian) God” was blasphemy to his or her (non-Christian) beliefs, all the way to simply being a smart-ass who read that the Supreme Court agreed at the height of World War Two that a student could not be forced to recite the pledge and decided to yank the teacher’s chain.

I have no problem with schools reciting the Pledge each day as a bit of societal culturization. However, your attitude that we should punish people who do not act and speak in the exact way that society determines is actually, in essence, spitting on the flag and on the memory of those who died to preserve our freedoms.

3

I’ve gotten to the point I’ll stand, but I will not recite. Sometimes though, I do not stand at all.
Here’s why:
The words “Under God”, I’m a Christian, however, I do not appreciate reciting that in school. Many of my friends do not believe in God, or the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of God.
But there’s more to it than that. Those words were added during the McCarthy era. That’s when the whole Pledge of Alligence because “official”. I’m sorry, but I cannot recite a pledge that is basically a memorial to Joe McCarthy, or “Are you not or have you ever been a Communist”
This country was based on Freedom. Freedom of religion. Freedom of the pursuit of happiness. Freedom to believe in any economic or government system. As far as I’m concerned, the Pledge of Alligance flies in the face of all of that.
I still stand of the National Anthem. Hell, I’m going to become a defense attorney so that I can defend the Constitution.I feel strongly about what it is and what it stands for.
Maybe these reasons aren’t good enough for you. Maybe I just sound silly. However, they are two reasons that I believe strongly in.

4

I love these arguments.

“To respect the country that gives you the freedom to exercise your rights, you shouldn’t exercise your rights.”

I completely support any schoolchildren who wish to refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance for whatever reason. Back in high school, I stood but didn’t recite it or place my hand over my heart. Kinda wish I’d had the fortitude to remain seated.

5

Ha.

You can’t force someone to love and/or respect their country, just like you can’t force someone to love and/or respect anything else. It’s the essence of counterproductivity.

6

I’ve noticed that there is a lack of patriotism on the SDMB. I appreciate the argument that one has the right not to salute the flag, but then does your right trump ordinary courtesy? The flag is a symbol of your country, the emblem of its values. To me, refusing to salute the flad is a rudness, not only to the people who fought and died for it, but to people around you who do love their country.

7

I see!

When you are an American, you don’t have to respect nor honor anything that your nation has done for you, nor anything that our soldiers have died to preserve. You have that right to damn the Flag, to sit on your butts and reap the freedoms, to enjoy the high standard of living and allow your bratty kids to sneer or insult a symbol of honor.

The Flag deserves respect. It seems to me that a bunch of you don’t.

8

No, no – didn’t you read the OP? TheMoonGazer beat up that guy who showed a lack of love and respect for the country. Problem solved!

goboy, I think that most of the people who argue so passionately for the right to burn the flag (or spit on it, or not salute it, or whatever), have no intention of doing so themselves. I want the right to burn the flag, even though I don’t plan to. The flag symbolizes freedom, including the freedom to disrespect that symbol.

9

There are many children, particularly Jehovah’s Witnesses, whose religious convictions forbid them to stand and salute any flag. The First Amendment, one of the freedoms that “those who have laid down their lives” died for, was intended to give them the right to do this.

Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t salute the flag in Nazi Germany either, so the German government murdered them in their thousands. That was one among the many evils that hundreds of thousands of U.S. G.I.'s fought to put an end to in World War II. I can think of no baser insult to America’s war dead than that their deaths be used as an excuse to curtail the freedoms they died for.

Incidentally, when the Pledge of Allegiance is called for, I say the words proudly, remove my hat, cover my heart, the whole nine yards (except, that, as an atheist, I omit the words “under God”). I love this country. One thing I love about my country is that children cannot be legally forced to violate their religious beliefs.

10

I find the whole pledge of alliegence thing very weird.

I think many other Europeans would find it strange too.

The points made about the loss of life to secure freedom are at least as relevant in most European nations as in the US.

This is something that the PC brigade dare not tackle, it seems to me, and yet it is something that appears to be anachronistic at best, nationalistic or even worse.

Once upon a time in the UK we used to swear alliegence to the King and Commonwealth(which shows how long ago it was).
They don’t do that any more, even the boys scouts don’t, in fact when I joined the Royal Navy I was not required to do so.
Having taken the Queen’s shilling loyalty is taken for granted, simply by making the effort to join and sign on the dotted line is proof enough.

Sometimes on tv news footage they will show stock shots of uniformed children in totalitarian nations such as China, North Korea, where they may hold up a book or just a hand and swear alliegence to that nations flag or leader - refusal is not an option.

Here we are talking about an extremely powerful social pressure placed on children to comply with a similar activity in a free nation - one whose mission statement is written into its constitution - that a citizen is free to disagree.

Flag burning is very provocative but in the UK you are free to do so as long as it is not likely to lead to public disorder.

The use of national flags to blindfold the public from seeing the shortcomings of said nation is a tried and trusted trick by just about every opportunist that ever gained high office.

And by acting like this you are descending to the level of the protester, maybe lower depending on the actual issue that the protester was disputing.

It’s also a rather self fulfilling action, if no-one was shocked by this behaviour then it would have little meaning and the protester would lose a protest tool, by resorting to violence all you did was to demonstrate what an effective method this is to gain attention.

Do you feel that respect is gained by knocking it into the heads of dissenters ? Fear perhaps, hatred of the flag and those who espouse values of freedom whilst actually denying it in the same breath - respect no.

11

I find this comment even more insulting than than those students who refuse to stand.
This great country you speak of, and the great flag that represents it, allows its citizens freedom! That includes freedom of expression and freedom of speech- or lack thereof.
By forcing a person to pledge allegiance, by using force to make a citizen do or say or think or believe anything, we are no longer a FREE country.
I watch students every morning refuse to get up for the pledge. Usually it is because they ‘just dont care’ or they are just being lazy. It is rare that a student has a social or political reason to not stand.
I look at them and just think that they are aloud to do this because our country is so great.
Should we become communists and force them to say what we want? Your statement about dragging them down to the office and punishing them is very disturbing. Using violence to force another human into doing or believing what you believe is one of the greatest evils throughout history…

There is an elementary school on the base here. The students there ALL stand and SAY the pledge. Then they all SING the anthem. And after that, another patriotic song is played. I was very impressed…

12

When I was a freshman in high school, I decided I didn’t want to recite the pledge. I’m not sure why the pledge affected me so much, but something about the “under God” part bothered me, because I am not religious, and it seemed to me (even then) that we as citizens enjoy both freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

For much of the year, I held my hand over my heart and merely mouthed the words. This is high school we’re talking about, and a stressful freshman year, at that. I really didn’t want to add to that stress, you see, but I figured I’d have my peace of mind if I didn’t recite along with the others.

As fate would have it, however, my homeroom teacher was a devout Christian, and after a while he noticed I wasn’t reciting. IIRC, he didn’t yell at me in front of everyone, but after the pledge was over he did ask me to step out into the hall with him. He asked me why I wasn’t reciting, and I told him I didn’t feel comfortable doing it. He said it was very important to him personally that I do so, and that if I would not comply I would be hurting him greatly. I replied that I didn’t want to hurt anyone, but that I did not feel right reciting the pledge. My memory’s a little hazy from back then, but he could see he wasn’t going to win the fight. I went back in and did just as I always did - mouthed the words, my own silent (if you will) protest.

What bothered me was that he was trying to use his personal beliefs to coerce me into reciting the pledge.

13

Ex-serviceman here, from a very long line of carreer military.

I am proud that the nation that I and so many of my relatives volunteered to serve protects the rights of its citizens to dissent. The OP’s reaction demonstrates why this is so important. He makes no attempt to understand the issues, ethics, or principles which might inspire a child to dissent from this particular activity. Yet, from his position of ignorance he is ready to hurl invective, intimidate children, and violently assault a fellow citizen for expressing a political idea that the OP found insulting.

I am not proud that the country I served contains such people, though I stand to defend the OPs rights as well.

I would also stand to send the bastard to jail if I had witnessed him “busting the head” of another human being.

14

As an atheist, I refuse to say the words “under God,” and I also abstain from reciting any prayer. I do however, sit respectfully when grace is said, observe silence when I should, stand when asked to by the preacher (if I happen to be at a wedding or funeral), and so forth. Such things are common courtesy, and students who refuse to stand are certainly guilty of being rude, if nothing else.

Nevertheless, they have every right to be rude in this instance. I do not agree with the entire concept of an enforced oath of allegiance, especially when too many children are too young to even comprehend what it is that they are actually saying. In the days of my youth it was a meaningless mantra, divested of significance through rote repetition. When I was old enough to understand and think about the words, I was still too politically and historically naive to grasp the US’s place in the world adequately.

It’s tempting to disregard this issue as being wholly trivial, which I think it is in 99 plus percent of the cases. But there are hypothetical cases which spring to mind. Picture the poor second grader who is effectively told in school that he can’t be a good American without reciting the Pledge, yet at home he’s taught that he can’t be a good Christian if he does.

15

the OP is a perfect example of how schizoid this country is. at 1st i thought he was being facetious, but he actually believes in fascism in the name of freedom.

i wouldn’t mind having a statuette of ben franklin in my apartment but i wouldn’t have an american flag. let’s see you annihilate the natives steal a continent then say thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal.

now why exactly did i decide i was an agnostic at 12? hmmm

Dal Timgar

16

I agree entirely. They must be compelled to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance in order to show that they value their right to free speech.

17

I believe that if you recite a pledge (i.e. a promise or agreement) and you don’t really mean it, you are disrespecting those that do mean it, and plan to keep their promise and loyalty. If you say a prayer with a group of believers and you don’t believe, you are, in a way, disrespecting them. I can’t explain why, but when you say a prayer or pledge and don’t mean it, alongside someone who does mean it, it seems to me that this is insulting to their sincerity.

This is why I don’t say the “under God” in the pledge – I don’t mean it. I’m in Key Club – part of the pledge is “to serve my nation and God,” from which I omit God – whom I can’t sincerely pledge to serve… I don’t say group prayers, but remain silent as a form of respect for the faith of others. If kids don’t feel right saying the pledge, why should they have to? If I promised to bake you a cake, and then didn’t bake you a cake, wouldn’t that be worse than me not promising you a cake in the first place? Why should one have to make a pledge you don’t intend to honor? Isn’t that worse than not pledging at all?

Didn’t we have a thread about group prayers a while back? Wouldn’t this be sort of the same deal?

18

To which America do they pledge their allegiance? The America of J. Edgar Hoover, or the America of Martin Luther King? The America that sends Care packages, or the America that sends the CIA?

A lot of the children of “my generation” remember the earnest patriotism of our childhood, with bitter nostalgia. We were taught, and sincerely believed, that when the poor and oppressed around the world heard “The Americans are coming!” they gave a glad shout, help was on the way! The truth was very different, as we came to learn.

To which America do we pledge? The noble dream of equality and freedom, or some geographical fact, a collection of states from somewhere north of Mexico to just south of the North Pole?

Nationalism sucks, and kills. Flags are obscenity, if all they reflect is a nation, not an ideal. There is no more perverse use of musical skill than the creation of a martial anthem.

To the original poster: the fellow you hit was a fool, stating a political opinion in a way that could only alienate the very people who need to be convinced. I have little sympathy for him.

You answered his political statement with violence.

You are a thug. I am ashamed of you.

19

Spiritus Mundi: Well said, sir.

I quit reciting the Pledge as soon as I was intelligent enough to realize how noxious it was. It’s not a patriotism thing, it’s a non-zombie thing. How many of the schoolchildren who get made to recite the pledge have ever actually thought about it, beyond “oh yeah, we’re better than [Russia/Iraq/random bad place]”? In my case, I didn’t even bother to stand up, or even to stop what I was doing.
The whole time I did this (last 6 years of my schooling), i got exactly one strenuous objection, from a substitute teacher who threatened to have me suspended (!) . I wasn’t but if I had been, I just would have sucked it up and kept on not standing. Schools are supposed to be for educational purposes, not indoctrination. They’re supposed to teach children to think, not to tell them that they’d better just shut up and agree that their country is perfect.

TheMoonGazer: As far as “flag desecration” goes, remember that, by reacting so strongly to it, you’re the one giving it its power. The U.S. Flag, like any other, is a rectangular standard identifying a particular nation, its posessions, or its citizens and adherents. It’s also used to distinguish ships at sea. It is not a sacred relic, to be preserved inviolate, nor is it an idol to be worshipped -especially in this country, where, as is quite correctly said, people have died defending liberty of thought, not as a mere good idea, but as the right of every person everywhere.

Needless to say, this includes your right to be disgusted by me, just as it includes my right to be disgusting.

20

Like a lot of other non-Christians, I politely stand, bow my head, etc. when attending a function that calls for it. I stand and recite the Pledge, and omit the “under God” part (I’m Pagan).

I don’t understand why the Pledge needs to be recited, though. I love this country and the freedoms I have, and I’m not leaving. But I was just born here. I did not choose to place my allegiance with the USA, nor did my children. Why must I pledge allegiance to a country simply because I was born here? (FWIW, this is a real question–I’m not being facetious).

If I choose to move to another nation because I suddenly decide that the USA sucks, then I could see pledging allegiance to that country.