You absolutely do not have a right to defend the honor of the flag by violent action against another person who is not breaking any laws. You should have been charged with assault. By doing such a fascist thing it was YOU who was spitting on everything the flag stand for. I’m sure you went a long way towards proving whatever point he was trying to make.
I didn’t stand for the pledge in high school. When I was in academic decathalon, the super-quiz was about supreme court decisions. I learned about the one where in standing for the pledge was not required, and choose to exercise that right, for the obvious reason that it really really really pissed off my teacher.
I did, and still do have a reason for it. Most of my classmates didn’t know what the words meant. An oath you don’t understand has no meaning. An oath taken under duress has no meaning. Forcing people to take an oath they don’t understand is an insult to all of the people who freely pledged, and did understand what they were saying.
As it happens, I do understand the words of the pledge, and agree with them. When in the presence of others who take the pledge seriously (the boyscouts, sailing clubs, etc), I stand and recite it.
Bingo! Now you’re starting to get it.
No, your pathetic attempt at sarcasm wasn’t lost on me, but really, bingo, you’re starting to get it. Read your above statement without the pathetic attempt at sarcasm, Jingo-boy.
What is the relevance of their existence? If something exists, must we do it, and do it in a way that satisfies you?
You do not have the right to tell other people what their actions mean.
You have some serious emotional problems. You really ought to seek help.
If someone wishes to enjoy the freedoms of America, they should leave America? What kind of sense does that make?
goboy
If by “patriotism” you mean “mindless ly agreeing with the status quo”, then I’m sure you have.
I don’t see how avoiding something because someone may be offended is “ordinary courtesy”. Many people are offended by homosexuality. Does “ordinary courtesy” therefore involve not engaging in homosexuality? Does your right trump “ordinary courtesy”?
How so?
Actually, I think the Americans on here are some of the most patriotic people I’ve ever seen. The overwhelming majority are staunch supporters of the 1st Amendment, one of the things that truly does qualify America for the “greatest nation on earth” title.
Patriotism is supporting the founding principles of your nation and the laws that are in accordance with those principles.
It is not blindly saying some pledge that became popular as a propaganda tool. And it is certainly not forcing people to support something they don’t, even if they don’t support those principles and laws you hold so dear. Especially in the U.S., where one of the principles is freedom of thought.
There are a few things that bother me about the Pledge of Allegiance.
Like most of you, the “God” thing bugs me. Back in school, I stood up, put my hand over my heart and said the whole thing - except for the “God” part. No biggie. My own little private protest.
Another thing I don’t like is the word “allegiance.” To me, that’s a scary word. I don’t pledge allegiance to anything. Maybe I pledge allegiance to me, or maybe nature, but that’s about it. I don’t know. The word just has a bad vibe to it. It just sounds a little too “cultish.” I just have a picture in my mind of a sea of Nazi youth - each with one arm outstretched.
Lastly, someone mentioned that the flag symbolizes the values of this country. Now I have a BIG problem with that. Just a small sample of the American values I disagree with include: slavery, that whole little “destroying the Native Americans” thing (not to mention the insane notion of “Manifest Destiny” - that one was always very funny to me), the whole “a government run by the people - for the people” scam… I mean, come on!
I could go on and on, but you get where I’m going. Hey, I feel for all the vets out that went through what they went through, but I find it very hard to “pledge allegiance” to such a power hungry, racist and blood-thirsty country. I just live here folks - I certainly don’t agree with it’s history and I definitely like to separate myself from it as much as I can.
By the way, when I’m out someplace (at a sporting event) and they sing the National Anthem, I’ll stand and take off my hat (if I’m wearing one) - but only out of respect for those around me that sincerely sing along and put their hearts into it. I may not agree with the songs politics, but I respect other’s passion and spirit.
By the way, I know, if I don’t like it, then get out. Well, sorry, I ain’t goin’ anywhere. But when the revolution comes, I’m on the side of the down trodden.
Oh yeah, and when the aliens come, I’m for the Earth, not the good ole US of A.
I totally agree with the OP. We have freedom of opinion and if anyone disagrees with our opinions we shall violently crush them. Everyone must be forced to pledge allegiance to this free country or they shall be stomped in the dust. You are free to do what you want as long as it’s all right with us.
Heil America!
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And some of the most ironic and/or silly quotes i’ve seen in a long time:
Although i’m not quite sure if that last one was meant to be sarcastic or not …
i live in Canada, and i stopped standing for the national anthem back in high school. they played it over the intercom at the beginning of Block 1 every monday, which put me in Social Studies. After a couple weeks of not standing my teacher tried to get me to tell him why i didnt stand, so instead of telling him that i thought nationalism was despicable, i just gave some weak “i dunno, i dont want to?” and stopped coming to class on time every monday. yah i was a bit non-confrontational. and I then wrote a position paper on the evils of nationalism (he gave me 90 something, oh yeah…) then i ended up with a mark of 50 something. maybe i shouldnt have skipped class so much. oh well.
James Clavell wrote an interesting story called The Children’s Story inspired by his daughter learning the Pledge of Allegiance. Basically, the story was about how dangerous in can be to learn something by rote (and forcing children to recite it) without understanding it.
I’m like Ptahlis. I’ll stand during a religious ceremony when appropriate. I’ll stand during the national anthem (of any country). I’ll respect other people’s beliefs. But like Gundhilde said, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance when it goes against your beliefs is more disrespectful than remaining silent. It’s the same reason that I won’t take communion even when everyone around me does.
Holy anus. You’re the most jingoistic person I’ve met since RosieWolf graced us with her presence last October.
I don’t want to “respect” the government of a country that has intervened in foreign nations 56 times since 1945. I don’t want to pledge allegiance to a country that has executed nearly 700 people in the past quarter century, and still executes juvenile offenders and the occasional innocent. I will not grovel before the symbol of a nation that, although it has freedoms on paper, does not allow us to have them in real life (see the Schneck (sp?) and Debs Supreme Court decisions, as well as countless others). The government of the United States of Amerika (to use Abbie Hoffman’s spelling) has participated in torture in Guatemala, assassinations elsewhere and arrests people for exercising their First Amendment rights. In the same schools where we’re taught about the Constitution we are subjected to random drug searches, cannot practice the same freedom of speech that is praised on the walls of Civics classrooms.
I don’t exactly like the country. Sure, there are some things that are good about it (at least we have freedom of speech on paper…) but on the whole I’d rather be in Sweden. No thanks on your offer to send me to Iraq.
The naturalization oath they make people recite is even worse…
I love these people who fling statements like this out on the Internet without the least fear that government thugs will come knocking on their door for it, as they would in Cuba or North Korea.
I guess the best freedoms are often the ones you’re unconscious of.
All I can say is that when I tell East Germans here about having to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning, at first they don’t believe me, and then they look like they’ve seen a ghost.
Gee, what’s worse, people like the OP, or people like Jello?
They both irritate the hell out of me.
They’re not going to knock down my door…I never said that. What they do do is arrest you if you protest (614 people were arrested at the convention protests…either 4 or 6 were convicted, I forget which, but still) or suspend you from school.
And why is it that whenever someone denounces the government they say “Oh, like North Korea’s any better…” It’s not. I never said it was. I said that the USA isn’t as great as it’s made out to be.
They wouldn’t knock down your door in Sweden…
From West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943):
Every country has a flag. Not every country has a West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette.
So which is it – you can’t afford the ticket, or they wouldn’t take you?
I am an American who loves her country and what it stands for. I cheerfully stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance – the whole thing, including under God – when it comes up, because I believe in the whole thing.
But I would like to see an end to having children recite it in the classrooms. It is, in effect, a loyalty oath (I pledge allegiance to the United States), and I don’t see any reason for children to be taking any sort of oath at all. Certainly they don’t need to do so as a prerequisite to receiving an education. Moreover, the failure to say the pledge might be seen as disrespectful by those who do not intend it to be and who have legitimate reservations about reciting. And it might be seen as disrepectful by those who fully intend it to be – like the poster who refused to recite simply because he knew it really pissed his teacher off. It provides an opportunity for kids to be smugly diobedient in the knowledge that their disobedience cannot be punished – a subtle issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with the pledge and what it may or may not mean and everything to do with kids (especially teens) just not liking to do what their told. It serves no real purpose. Certainly, as an excercise in rote memorization, it provides no history or context for why a person might willingly make such a pledge. So get rid of it and add five more minutes of American history (good and bad). That way, if people later choose to take the pledge they’ll at least know why they’re saying it, and that they say it voluntarily.
What you said was that the U.S. has “freedoms on paper,” but “does not allow us to have them in real life” and that citizens “cannot practice the same freedom of speech that is praised on the walls of Civics classrooms.” You just openly spoke in harshly critical terms of the U.S. government. If this country actually lacked freedom of speech, the government would kill you or imprison you as soon as its spies traced your IP address. That’s what it’s like in countries that genuinely lack freedom of speech.
True. I hear Sweden’s a great place to live. This has what to do with why you are not now being cattle prodded in the genitals for criticizing the government?
Who was it who said that more crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than out of disobedience? Imagine a scenario where this country still has the same problems it now has, but everyone says the pledge without hesitation - can you guarantee me that they’d all be doing it out of love, and not out of fear?
Exactly.
In a thread debating the proposed Flag Burning Amendment, I remember someone said:
“The best reason not to burn the flag is that you can burn the flag.”
As soon as we stop recognizing the right to dissent, we become far worse than those we seek to silence.