I cruised by The O’Reilly Factor the other night and Bill was outraged, OUTRAGED to hear that Jesse Ventura had vetoed a bill that would have made the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory in Minnesota schools.
O’Reily’s “arguement” was that ok, people who didn’t agree with saying certain phrases (Mainly the ‘under God bit’) didn’t have to say the Pledge, but they would have to stand to show "respect for the Flag and what the pledge represents.
Ok, the year after I graduated high school, they madated that the pledge be said in all schools in Montgomery County, MD. A year later I asked my friend who taught English at my old high school what he thought of it, and he said it was the biggest “mandatory waste of time” that he knew of. The majority of the kids in high school could give a rats ass, they’re all too busy thinking about who they’re gonna be banging at the keg party on Friday night etc.
But US citizens aside, what if you are a foreign exchange student or the children of diplomats? I doubt their parents would think really highly of their kids “swearing allegiance” to another countries flag.
Opinions, quarrels, just plain bored to tears, now that rerun season is here?
Making someone pledge allegiance to a flag has about as much meaning as making someone hear a generic school prayer. It is only meaningful if it means something to the person involved. I applaud Governor Ventura for his veto. I am not anti-flag. I am a proud U.S. citizen. But why would forcing school children to pledge allegiance be meaningful in any way?
As a foreigner (and erstwhile foreign student), I would not object to this – as long as it was made clear that we were not expected to utter the pledge itself.
To be fair though, the students aren’t being forced to utter the pledge. The pledge ceremony is mandatory, but apparently, the students can decline if they so wish.
Having said that, I think that the students should be made aware that uttering the pledge is indeed optional.
Compelled allegiance to the symbol, as opposed to the substance of a nation. Yeah, we want to build that kind of jingoist crap into our children’s understanding of what our nation is.
I would have refused, as a child. I would refuse today. I have a complete contempt for the moron willing to spit on the concept of freedom to bolster his narrow minded me and mine view of patriotism by foisting this violation of free speech on children.
Anyone happen to know which national political party was willing to support this crap? Anyone?
Tris
“Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” ~ Thomas Jefferson ~
I, too, applaud Jesse Ventura for his veto on this MN Bill. Though it is often brought up that some object to the “under God” wording, there are those of us (Quakers) who object to such a pledge for other reasons.
For a libertarian (of which I am also) view, mandatory compliance without given consent is an act of coercion.
Usually I chose to stand to show respect for another, but often thoughts of those who trample and disregard our Constitution run through my mind and fill my heart with sadness.
Have a first grader say the pledge. Its filled with big words. Allegience, Indivisable. Even the little words have abstract meanings. Liberty, Justice. Its pretty meaningless until sometime in high school, when you can begin to understand the concepts it stands for.
Of course, by that time, you are sure we are “one nation, under God, invisable.” If you and your friends haven’t done even worse things to the pledge. And if given the opportunity to opt out, you might, not for the right reasons, but just to yank the chain of authority.
And tell a first grader he or she can “opt out?” Nope. Two theories. Either my first grader is well behaved, and even if I, the parent, want him to opt out, he follows the lead of the authority figure, or my first grader is leading a sit in of 20 “conciencious objectors” and the law isn’t doing any good whatsoever (since, with six year olds, one person not going along can easily start a mutiny).
There are so many better ways to teach our children patriotism. Teaching them history. Teaching them about the concepts of democracy, liberty, freedom and justice. Teach them about other parts of the world - both good systems, and the bad ones. A blind recessatation of the pledge is a feel good law that doesn’t accomplish much. I don’t think it hurts (much), but I want laws that DO something.
My problem with it is that even requiring the child to stand is a denial of the child’s constitutional rights. I would think that a governmental entity would be more interested in not disobeying the governmental charter.
I read a Chicago Tribune editorial on this a few days ago (they acknowledged that they don’t applaud Ventura for much, but they did for this). They mentioned that the Supreme Court had, a number of years back, invalidated a mandatory pledge law after a suit brought by (I think) a Jehovah’s Witness. So there should be little question about the Constitutionality of laws like this.
Then again, the courts have ruled again and again against school prayer and the like and those keep coming back, so I guess this shouldn’t be any different… Sigh.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943), one of the great Supreme Court decisions. (Yes, the case was brought on behalf of a Jehovah’s Witness.) Note that it was decided while the country was waging a total war on multiple fronts. There are differences, of course; the West Virginia Board of Education actually sought to compel students to “participate in the salute honoring the Nation represented by the Flag; provided, however, that refusal to salute the Flag be regarded as an Act of insubordination, and shall be dealt with accordingly”. Presumably supporters of the proposed Minnesota law would argue this is not the case with what they were proposing.
From West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette:
Well, that may be as may be; however, here in the United States, we have this nifty little thing called participatory government. Try it out sometimes–it’s quite interesting.
Excellent. They just don’t write opinions like that anymore.
The pledge of allegiance is a load of crap. Just a poor excuse to get kids to calm down for 30 seconds. We didn’t even understand what we were saying. The kids in my class used to think it was "One nation, under God, invisible…
Incidentally, West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette was handed down before they stuck God into the pledge, so even eliminating “under God” would not remove all the constitutional issues from compulsory pledge laws.
