It’s not even just the issue of whether I should respect my flag or country: I also find it disreputable that anyone would think to tell me HOW I should show or feel respect my country (by mass ritual?)
As an interesting but pointless side note, prior to WWII, the “flag salute” in the U.S. was what later came to be recognized as the Nazi Heil Hitler salute. Patriotic watchdogs were careful to change it.
I led the pigeons to the flag, of the United States of America, and screwed the public, for Richard Sands; One naked individual, took liberties with justice, for fraud.
I I may be mis-remembering, and I’ll try and find some time today to go back and re-read the entire text of the SC finding, but as I recall, what they found unconstitutional was requiring the students to actually speak the pledge, not standing silently in respect. In fact, the Jehovah’s Witness even offered to stand silently, but the board of education wanted them to actually speak the pledge. While I understand some people not wanting to participate, I do think that schools have the right to demand that students stand silently in respect. Being respectful at certain times is something that is required from time to time in our adult lives too. Or has nobody here ever had to sit through a CEO’s pep talk at work? Or listen to a police officer tell about the terror’s of speeding, I suppose you could mouth off in those situations, but if so, you’ll be limiting your career paths. And I’m not sure what Constitutional right you think is being violated by requiring them to stand quietly. Should people not have to stand in a court of law when the judge enters? Maybe it’s ok to sprawl in that chair when the President enters a room.
It might be just be as an Australian but there seems to be something stalinistic about requiring impressionable children to affirm how great their country is each and every morning. Even if it is voulantary.
My parents lived through the Big Leap forward in China and they told some pretty scary stories about the little red book and pledging alliegences.
Students are already required to be respectful and listen to the teacher all day. That’s what school IS. Why is it necessary to have additional mindless rituals for them to go through? If they want that, they can join the Army. Do you really think a kid will grow up, sit in a courtroom some day, and when the bailiff says “all rise”, he’s gonna think “Hmmm…I am unfamiliar with the concept of standing up, so I will remain seated”.
I’m all for respecting the teacher, but saluting the flag just seems silly to me.
I agree with Rjung that compulsory patriotism is meaningless. Forcing people to say they are loyal is a bit too Kim Jung Il for my tastes. One of the great things about being an American is the freedom to tell the government to take a hike.
On the other hand, while I don’t think anyone should be forced to say the Pledge, I do think people ought to say it out of a desire to be good citizens.
Think about the words:
You’re not swearing fealty to a piece of cloth or to George W. Bush. you’re affirming that you are loyal to the republic, that is, the people of the USA. You are saying that you are loyal to your friends, your family, and to your community at large. You’re saying that you will be there to defend your fellow countrymen and to the ideals on which our nation was founded.
When I say the pledge, I’m pledging loyalty to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, to racial and religious tolerance, the equality of all citizens under the law, to freedom from kings and dictators, to support and defend my land.
I don’t think those are bad ideas to be loyal to.
The only way for this to have meaning is if it is said from the heart, not because one has been ordered to. Compulsion goes against the very spirit of the Pledge of Allegiance.
—On the other hand, while I don’t think anyone should be forced to say the Pledge, I do think people ought to say it out of a desire to be good citizens.—
This is EXACTLY what is so Orwellian about the Pledge. As if not wanting to engage in a mass recitation of a ritualistic pledge somehow makes one less of a good citizen.
—When I say the pledge, I’m pledging loyalty to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, to racial and religious tolerance, the equality of all citizens under the law, to freedom from kings and dictators, to support and defend my land.—
Maybe that’s how you interpret it, but then, if that’s the case, why shouldn’t you pledge THAT every morning, instead of a bunch of words that may or may not really represent that?
The point is that children are in school to be taught. If schools are not going to be teaching them anything, then they have no other claim on their time. Like the moment of silence, if someone doesn’t have to participate, why do they have to be there in the first place? In fact, why is it a government activity at all? The whole point of a republican form of government is that WE tell the government what to think, not the reverse.
Children are not miniature adults. They cannot, on their own, determine that America is a great nation. It is good that they are taught loyalty to their nation at an early age.
Apos, you say that children are in school to be taught. I agree. And one of the most important lessons they can learn is that they live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. The young children do not have the mental capacity to determine this on their own, so much like learning the ABC’s, rote recitation plays a role.
Much like young Germans were taught loyalty to the Fatherland and the Fuhrer at an early age?
(Sorry, couldn’t resist)
Loyalty should not be taught, it should be earned.
Maybe we should just force the kids to chant:
I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…I live in the greatest nation in the history of the world…
Nope, I’m still not buying it. Thank god I have a good enough mental capacity to think for myself.
Sorry, not something I want my kids to learn by rote memorization. Patriotism is not the ABCs.
And even if it was, children at a young age do not UNDERSTAND the pledge. They just say it cause they are told to. They aren’t learning anything by rote memorization. I can swear in French by rote memorization - but I have no idea how offensive what I’m saying actually is - or even what I am actually saying (therefore, I avoid swearing in French).
Good point Dangerosa. It’s not exactly written at a child’s level. I didn’t have the faintest clue what “indivisible” meant when I was a kid.
It is not as if though children truely understand much of what they are taught. You cannot treat them like reasoning little adults. They are not. ‘New Age’ education does not work, just look at the current pathetic state of much of the American public school system.
To say that children need to find out everything on their own is ludicrous. Should they discover that murder is illegal and immoral on their own? How about theft? Let em keep stealing, until they get caught? THEN they will learn a lesson?
As for the cute little Nazi comment…Since Hitler was a vegetarian, should we all stop eating vegetables? Or since he commisioned the autobahn, should we all only drive on dirt roads? Don’t be so ignorant.
Rjung, maybe you should take a minute to have a chat with Mr. Godwin.
Well, Otto, you are right. They are not little adults. But some things are important to learn by rote. It is pretty impossible to learn phonics any other way, for instance. And some things its pretty important to understand. I think patriotism is one of those things its far more important to understand than it is to learn by rote. And I don’t think it can be taught by rote by reciting the pledge anyway. You obviously disagree.
By the way, I think its very important for kids to understand, not just learn by rote, that murder and stealing are wrong. These are concepts they can begin to understand when they start to develop empathy. If you teach a child “don’t bang your brother over the head because you’ll get in trouble,” you’ll have a child who bangs her brother over the head whenever she thinks she won’t get caught. Let them understand why it is wrong, through empathy, and she won’t do it (unless he makes her really mad!).
Now it takes a much broader view to use empathy to develop a sense of justice (as in “with Justice for all,” and not the “it’s not fair!” of the average six year old) and a much broader experience than that of a six year old to understand liberty.
But these are just my opinions and you can make your children recite whatever pledge you want every day…wait a second, as a Minnesota mom, these are my children we are talking about, so my opinions should be carrying some weight with what the legislature is going to make my children pledge in their schools.
Hey, believe me, I wasn’t too thrilled with that example, either. But off the top of my head, I couldn’t recall any easily-referenced instances of young tykes pledging their allegiance en masse.
I suppose I could have checked with some mainland Chinese immigrants to ask if Mao did something similar with the kiddies during his reign, but since I wouldn’t see my Mom until later this evening, that put a kibosh on the idea. 
—And one of the most important lessons they can learn is that they live in the greatest nation in the history of the world.—
This is not an academic lesson of any merit. It teaches children nothing more than to repeat a subjective judgement as objective fact, which is a crime against honest inquiry, not part of an education. Whether America is a great or the greatest nation is an opinion, and the government has no bussiness telling its citizens what opinions to have. What children are to learn are the facts of history, of science, of mathematics, or linguistic communication: not a particular ideology.
When did anyone say that they should find out everything on their own?
Do you really think that political dissent is equivalent to stealing?
The sticking-tongue-out smiley? In other words, I think too many of our congresscritters have the attitude of “make me!” Though each and every one of them swear to uphold the Constitution, too many of them don’t even consider it when introducing and passing bills.
Thanks, MEBuckner, for providing West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette. I also enjoyed reading the reasoned opinion.
Could you reference where in the Constitution the authority was given to government to require citizens to stand quietly?
As a military veteran, I really have to say this to those who clamour for the tykes to stand in unison, regardless of their right not to, and clamour for the tykes to then recite a pledge, again regardless of their right not to:
I DIDN’T DEFEND THE COUNTRY SO YOU CLOWNS CAN FORCE CHILDREN TO SAY A SET OF WORDS JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS!
Now that I’ve said that, gobear: Please read the beginning words of the POA. It is, in fact, a declaration of allegiance to a piece of cloth. It does also have a declaration of allegiance to a country, but the fact remains that it is first an oath to a cloth.