Edlyn: Thanks. I kind of thought that was your point but really wanted you to say it. But you’ll notice I didn’t have to pass a law for it! <insert your own smiley here>
“Unless we conform - unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can be free”
-Frank Burns
Hmm, as a Canadian atheist who knows the Pledge and the Lord’s Prayer by heart, all I can say is: good job, Jesse. Mindless ritual is just a damn waste of time.
Now excuse me while I go watch Star Trek: TNG. I’ve only seen this episode twice.
Monty, sugar, the POA is an oath of fealty to a symbol, not the object itself. C’mon, do you think devout Christians worship two unequal lengths of metal attached perpendicularly? Do you think people in the United States use small green pieces of paper to pay for goods and services because the paper is itself intriniscally valuable? Do you think Charles Foster Kane mourned the loss of Rosebud because he wanted to go sledding?
The flag, in itself, is, as you say, a piece of cloth. But if that’s all you see, if you fail to understand that it is a representation of an idea, then you need to go back to Semiotics 101.
However, I do see your point. There’s a Star Trek episode called, “The Omega Glory,” in which Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (plus a red shirt who got vaporized) found themselves on a planet where convergent evolution had created a parallel United States that was wiped out by a global plague. The survivors retained the trappings of citizenship, including the POA and the flag. However, they had forgotten what the words and flag meant, and they mindlessly repeated the POA as “worship words” and used the flag as an object of veneration. Kirk, of course, sets them straigfht about not worshipping the object, but the meaning behind the object.
Cool! I’ve only seen that epiosde three times.
Well, twenty-three. mmHEY!
gobear: I don’t think that Christians swear fealty to a cross but rather to their deity. I do notice that the POA has the very words “I pledge allegiance to the FLAG]” in it.
So, please, tell me what allgiance to a cloth is.
“and to the Republic** for which it stands**” It’s allegiance to a nation, not a piece of cloth.
Compulsory statements of allegiance are empty blatherings precisely because they are compulsory. They are statements of submission, nothing more. As such, they are the darlings of those who seek robotic obedience to Authority.
Lets teach our children allegiance to “…Liberty and Justice for all…” To the extent that the flag truly represents those values, (which is to say as long as we do), it is worthy of veneration as a symbol.
If it does not, and too many times it has not. it is nothing more than a rag on a stick. If you can’t bind your brother’s wounds with it, or break his chains, or feed his children, it is no more sacred than toilet paper, and subject to the same utility.
Dang, Elucidator, you made Monty’spoint better than he did.
and my point
in a clear, succinct, and nonpartisan fashion. Color me astonished that we agree on something.
The nation that is worth pledging one’s allegiance to is further described in the remainder of the Pledge, and concludes with “with liberty and justice for all.” Not one word in there about compulsory patriotism.
Heinlein once contrasted the situation during WWI and WWII to Vietnam – his point being that the draft in the two world wars was simply to select fairly among the volunteers (at least at first) because people saw a danger and wanted to fight to protect their country from it, which was not the case during Vietnam. His issue was not “how this country is going to the dogs” but rather that what was motivating people in the world wars was missing in the Vietnam conflict – and that had to do with a freely given allegiance to an ideal, not to compulsory behavior mandated by a self-empowered social establishment.
In my ideal world, everybody would say the Pledge of Allegiance – and mean it. But in a world where that ain’t the case, requiring it to be said without a sense that one means the words contained therein and freely chooses to pledge one’s fealty to the concepts therein summarized is worse than meaningless – it will serve to alienate those who might, given a free choice, find themselves possessed of patriotism out of loyalty to a free country when the rubber hits the road.
Hence the name. Aptly yclept.
Well, you have made considerable progress.
The pledge isn’t a text book or dictionary, its art as well as an oath. It was written to be a declaration of loyalty that was not only meaningful, but also moving and artistic. “…to the flag…” is as much a stirring flourish as it is a symbolic representaion of the country.
(And I’ll just admit right now that that’s my personal interpretation, so don’t ask for a cite)
The arguement about kids not understanding is only partially valid. First graders are more than capable of understanding what they’re saying in the pledge; if they don’t its because no one bothered explaining it to them, and that I object to.
We have a small park in our neighborhood that has a flag in it. Whenever we go for walk, we stop and say the pledge. We took the time to explain what it meant, and the four year old had no trouble understanding that. ( The gist - “I promise to be a good friend to my country, and to help out if it needs it”) We also add “Thank you flag” at the end, and from talking with the kids, its clear they know they’re thanking the country via the flag, and not the flag itself. Stopping to say the pledge is one of the kids favorite parts of our walks.
All that said, I don’t think the Pledge should be mandatory in school. I DO think it should be read over the PA every morning, and those who want to say it can, those who want to silently stand can, and those that want to make out while the teacher’s back is turned can do that too. I don’t think we should compelling patriotism, but I certainly think we should encourage it.
Patriotism is of dubious pedigree in a democracy. The people are the ones who are supposed to be judging if the country is currently what they want it to be, not ritually avowing that it is.
But even if patriotism were not a suspicious thing in a democracy, why should there me a SINGLE mandated method of HOW people should express their patriotism? Why always the same pledge, limited to the same terms: a ritual that has to be interpreted to get to be what we want it to be, instead of simply honestly saying what you mean spontaneously? Why always the symbol of the flag? At the very least, this belies an obsessive fixation upon a single means, a severe lack of imagination.
If there needs be any common symbol, then our founders already had it right: our REAL motto used to be E pluribus Unum: Out of many, One. A perfect way to combine the concept of diverse and contentious populace still being a single nation: the hope of democracy is to allow disagreement and unity to be two sides of the same coin.
Sorry gobear; the POA does not say “I pledge allegiance to the republic for which the flag stands.” It says “pledge allegiance to the flag AND to the republic for which it stands.”
Granted, the authors (the original author and the sanctimonious jackass that inserted the words “under God”) might not have a grasping of the meaning of the word “and.”
Well, I know what the POA means to me, so i will continue to say it. If the POA offends you, Monty, my advice is not to say it. After all, it’s still a free country, and there is no compulsion to say it if you don’t want to.
Not yet anyway. But just wait until we have the soldiers with the M-16’s in each and every classroom making sure that the POA is said by EVERYONE.
Hopefully I will have been one of the first ones thrown up against the wall and shot when that day comes.
gobear:
Exactly. Right now this is a free country. The problem is there’s more than a few fanatics trying to legislate that freedom away. Funny enough, they’re using the POA to do it.
Polycarp, my friend, I have only one question:
Are you out of your ever-lovin’ mind??
The root of the word ‘allegiance’ is ‘liege’. IN short, ‘allegiance’ is that debt of loyalty and service one in medieval times owed to one’s liege lord. That debt may now be owed to a democratically elected government, but the underlying idea is still the same - one that gobear made clear with his use of ‘fealty’ as a synonym. (“The obligation of loyalty owed by a vassal to his feudal lord.” - American Heritage Dictionary.)
You and I, my friend, we’ve already got a liege Lord. Our allegiance has already been given. How can it be given twice? Can a man serve two lords? (I think you know the answer to that one.)
Even if this nation was the country it ought to be, saying that pledge would still be wrong for those who serve the Lord, AFAICT. It would have to become a nation dedicated to the service of the Lord - and in that case, like the angel in Revelation, it would adamantly correct anyone who attempted to pledge allegiance to it.
And in a time such as now, when the lion has not yet lain with the lamb, many who call themselves Christians believe they can do so. They mislead themselves by doing so, regardless of what country they are in - and so Christians aim their weapons at each other, because their countries tell them to do so, and they’ve allowed themselves to be confused to the point of mortal sin, placing their country ahead of Christ, and ahead of the commandment to love one another.
I can see it now, the Junior G-Men of the future. Bright eyed little apparatchiks, clean cut and ever alert, looking around the classroom. casting a curious gaze on their fellow students during the Patriotic Minute, just watching really.
And taking names.
Jesse Ventura is one of my favorite politicians, and again he shows why he is sharper than 99.5% of the other politicians in the country.