The pledge: should I stand? (different)

Great Debates
1

I’m mostly a lurker, and only post when I feel that something’s particularly important or whatever. Here’s the Important Thing of the Year:

For the last two weeks, I’ve sat during the pledge. This is homeroom, where I have Eng. and S.S. first and fifth period(4 periods a day.)

Last week, when I didn’t stand, Connie (eng. teacher; major patriot) simply said the she wished that i would never have to live in a country where… and the din of the classroom cut her off.

This week, Mutt (SS teacher; patriot as well) said that I didn’t have to say the pledge “for seperationg of C & S reasons or whatever” (sensible, but not my reason) but I did have to stand, out of respect.

I know that I by no means HAVE to stand. I know that Mutt can’t make me; I have this right. The question is: I really like both of these teachers, and I’m not sure if it’s worth the fuss. Should I stand and be silent, to reduce the trouble? Should I sit as before and need to fight for my rights? Thanks dopers.

2

Joff-Rey:

Are you familiar with the concept that you can win the battle but lose the war? You have to decide for yourself whether this is the hill you want to die on. (Wow! Two military metaphors in succession!)

If you prefer a quieter existence, perhaps you can express your protest some other way. Stand when you’re told to stand, but lower your head (to indicate shame). That sort of thing.

3

I also refuse to say the pledge of allegiance. Although as an adult the situation hardly ever arises anymore. Mainly, as an athiest I object to the “under God” phrase. But the whole thing is silly. Pledge allegiance to a FLAG? The revival and current wording of the pledge of allegiance came about during the McCarthy era (1950’s) and I don’t like to be associated in any way with those ideas. However, I recognize that other people have a very different viewpoint so in respect of these other people I stand whenever the pledge is said. But I keep my mouth shut.

Another view of the pledge is that it is a ritual that signifies the beginning of the school day. Sort of like when a judge bangs his gavel to bring the court to order.

I would think that if you have a well-reasoned and researched answer for why you don’t want to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance your teachers should respect your beliefs and not hassle you.

Funny aside: one year in high school my homeroom teacher was from the south and to even things out, after saying the pledge, we would sing a Confederate civil war song!

4

Joff-Rey!, you might not be familiar enough with the boards to realize this, but for future reference, “should I” type questions generally go over in the In My Humble Opinion forum. I’ll move it over there for you.

5

I’m curious about your statement that the teacher started to say that “she wished that i would never have to live in a country where… and the din of the classroom cut her off.” Was the din directed at her or you, or was it something else entirely?

Even if you decide that this is a battle you don’t want to fight, I admire your courage. The best approach is to build up a good case why you choose to not stand, or at least not recite the pledge. There are a couple of other threads on this board that discuss this very issue. You might try a search on “Pledge” or “flag”…

Good luck.

Bill Norton
Austin, TX

6

Joff-Rey!, are you in high school? The reason I ask is because I’m not sure about your “I have this right” statement. Is this spelled out in your school/state education code anywhere? Minors lack lots of rights, obviously, and while I have no clue about the one in question, I would suggest that, before making a stand, you make sure that there’s no rule in some dusty law book in the principal’s office, if you know what I mean.

This is called “getting your ducks in a row.” Entirely up to you, though. Either way, let us know what you decide and how it turns out!

As for your OP question, I’m not sure why you just don’t go up to Mutt and ask her politely why it’s necessary that you stand, and if it’s written down anywhere that you need do so. If you’re calm, rational, and respectful to her, I don’t see why she’d see it as ‘trouble.’

[sub]And I apologize in advance if you’re not a minor![/sub]

7

Chronos: Sorry: wrong forum. Brainfart.

Bill: I didn’t cause the din. It was just the general US public school system din.

Flyboy: I don’t know how to find it, but there was a lawsuit where it was decided that students had the right to sit during the pledge. And I’m well aware and well ashamed of what rights minors lack in the US. Oh, and, Mutt’s a guy. It’s a nickname; his real name is Matt.

8

I tend to agree with your teacher–you should stand not because you have to–you don’t, and I will argue myself blue that you don’t have to and that anyone attempting to force you is wrong–but simply becasue standing is the right thing to do. This is not a matter of big principles, but simply of good manners. It seems to me to be rather like going over to someone’s house and discovering they say grace–you ought not mouth words you don’t believe, but at the same time you ought not force everyone else at the table to acknowledge that you think thier beliefs are wrong. So you stand, or bow your head, or whatever. If they ask you to lead the prayer, you decline politly, and in a way that allows them to accept your excuse gracefully (“No, thank you” instead of “Sorry, Satan wouldn’t approve”).
There is a fat grey line between standing up for what you believe in and forceing your beliefs down someone’s throat, and I think that this falls right in the middle of that line. So if it is something you feel really really strongly about (i.e., if one of your core beliefs is that America is The Great Satan) then fight it out. But if this is more of a personal preferance than anything, than I would go with the flow.

9

I don’t say the pledge anymore. I rarely did when I was a kid, just stood and stared off into space for a few minutes.
I find the concept of pledging to defend a piece of cloth absurd. Nation, I might defend. Probably would. Piece of cloth? Nope.

You don’t have to stand period. You can sit there and make faces, or whatever, but you don’t have to stand at all.

It’s a supreme court case, I think from WWII.

10

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) (USSC+)
http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[group+f_pledge+of+loyalty!3A]/doc/{t20482}/hit_headings/words=4/pageitems={body}?

That’s the specific case I was thinking about. You’ll probably need a solid reason for doing this other that “it’s stupid”, but you shouldn’t have a problem.
Hope that helps!

11

Well, I am not a Canadian (IANAC?) but when at a hockey game and the Canadian flag is raised and their national anthem is played I stand out of respect for the Canadians who are present.

So if you respect the teachers who like saying the pledge you should stand for respect for them. Don’t place your hand on your heart or speak but standing would respectful to them.

If you don’t want to be respectful to the teachers or the other students you could sit and make arm-pit noises.

12

I guess you didn’t learn the same pledge I did. The one I said in school pretty clearly stated

making this an obvious oath of loyalty to the US. Even without this line, the flag is pretty clearly a tangible proxy for the nation, something concrete to which you can direct the oath.

I think it would be a simple courtesy to rise while other students are saying the pledge. I think Manda JO’s saying grace analogy is very apt.

And if you feel like starting a Pit thread about this, I’ll tell you how I really feel.

Scott

13

Nope, I don’t do proxy. I will not pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. The US, I like. No problems there. But I feel silly pledging allegiance to a piece of colored cloth.

Gee… Ah… Nah. I can skip that. Let’s keep it sane, we’re more likely to actually discuss things out of the Pit. :slight_smile:

Scott **
[/QUOTE]

14

Joff-Rey:
Before deciding not to stand for the pledge, think of why you don’t want to stand. To defy your teachers, because you don’t want to stand for a flag, because your too lazy, because you don’t like your county etc. When you figure out your reason, decide how important that reasoning is to you. It MIGHT be easier to just stand while the pledge is said than to take the crap from your teachers, OR it might be more…just (for lack of a better word at the moment) to stick with your belief whatever it is and deal with your teachers. Whatever you decide its OK and a lot of other people do it as well. I, personally stand out of respect for the men and women who served (maybe one day I’ll be serving) but I don’t say the pledge, at leats not in school, because I find it ridiculous to say something over and over so it no longer has meaning. (thats MHO BTW)
As for Mr. doc_miller:
There has been a really really long (more than one actually) thread about the whole standing, pledging to a flag thing. So been there done that. There is no LAW against not standing or saying the pledge, so there shouldn’t be any problems. BTW: here are the names of the other posts: “How I convinced my teacher to let me sit while the flag salute.” “Virginia Schoolchildren to be force to recite pledge” there may be more I dont know.

Whatever you decide to do Joff-Rey good luck.

15

I’m kind of with south here. Exactly what is the reason why you don’t want to stand? Do you honestly and truly have issues with the whole concept? Or is it the “cool” thing to do and you like the idea that it’s yanking someone’s chain?
To me, whether you agree with the pledge or not, it’s respectful to others. Is it the religion aspect? Please… I hope you don’t carry money. Just as if you are a guest at someone’s home who happens to say grace before a meal. I’m not a religious person at all, but I certainly bow my head out of respect for my host while in my head I’m hoping that they didn’t use too much lemon on the fish. Don’t want to honor your country? Your choice. If so, I hope you plan to leave the country when you are of legal age to do so. You don’t want to say it, fine… don’t. But if you feel that you have to sit down during it, simply because it’s your teenage “right” to do so… <insert words that belong in the pit>. It’s about more than a piece of cloth and plot of land. Perhaps a little more time spent studying history and civics rather than wondering how you can screw around under the guise of your “civil rights” might do some good.

16

Me, I stand and say the Pledge. I sing the Star-Spangled Banner right out loud, and deplore the custom of standing there like an audience listening to someone else sing it. Heck, I get tears in my eyes when I sing it. Cuz I’ve had a lot of clients who are from countries that live under nasty dictatorships and to whom “democracy” means holding sham “elections” so you can collect your US aid. I believe, with all our faults, we do a better job. I am a deep-down patriot.

But in this country you CANNOT be legally forced to mouth words you don’t believe in. You might want to look for the telephone number of your state’s chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, which will likely supply you with a free lawyer to get your teachers off your back.

Shame on THEM. They don’t get it. They’re honoring the ceremonial forms of living in a democracy without a clue as to what real liberty means.

Having said all this, I will make the common sense observation that you may be taking an awful lot of social/peer pressure heat if you don’t stand. Just like all those wild-eyed revolutionaries who refused to acknowledge the lawful and benevolent authority of George III. What were they thinking, insulting the rest of society that way? However, realistically, some of them had to pay the ultimate price for refusing to knuckle under. So it’s up to you.

17

Joff-Rey!, the question of whether you should fight for your rights or go along depends on your reason, what it means to you, and how that balances with the consequences. Consequences include the effort to fight it (parent-teacher conferences, talking to the principle, maybe having to bring up the ACLU or whatever, causing a disturbance for all the other students, general loss of good-will from your teachers, etc). Since you didn’t state what your reason is, we can’t help evaluate that or provide more insight.

Unless I had a good reason, I’d probably stand out of respect to the teachers even if not actually participating. On the other hand, there can be good reasons not to. For instance, there was an incident in my high school (some years ago) where a group of students got in trouble for not standing for the flag at pep rallies. These students were Jehovah’s Witnesses, so it was a religious injunction. They were not being disruptive or rowdy, merely not participating. They got yelled at by the assistant principal and kicked out of the rally without justification. My sister joined in with them in protesting by not participating, on principle. It was eventually resolved - they were right.

It matters how disruptive you’re being, too. Quietly not participating is different than talking with a neighbor, making armpit noises, or throwing confetti, etc.

Turbo Dog, I will stand (or sit) quietly and not interrupt out of courtesy, but I don’t bow my head. Bowing the head is an act of participation, and I’m not participating. If anyone says anything to me about it, I’ll point out they had to look up at me to notice. They should worry more about what they were doing.

Your comment regarding money, some of us feel it doesn’t belong there, it’s there inappropriately. It was put there in the '50s out of fear of the “godless communists”. Some people would like to see it removed. I know people who scratch it out. But most of us ignore it, because it’s not what the money is about anyway. The money is just a symbol of value for trading purposes. What it says on it is irrelevant as long as it conveys that purpose. It could say “Try Anal Sex Today” and I’d still use it if that’s what constitutes money.

As for your comment about leaving the country, that’s stupid. Just because I don’t want to be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance I should leave the country? Isn’t that what this country is about - freedom of conscience and freedom of expression? (By the way, I do say the pledge - minus the “under God” - and sing the anthem usually. I just do it as my choice, not as a requirement.)

18

It doesn’t matter whether you stand or sit if the pledge doesn’t mean anything to you. It’s just a bunch of words to me, because I don’t know how lucky we are to live in the US. I haven’t experienced anything horrible enough to make me grateful for this free country of ours. During grade school, I just repeated these words without ever thinking about what they mean. I don’t even remember the plege now. I’m stuck in my own comfortable little world where I haven’t had to earn anything and everything has been handed to me on a platter. Anyway, IMO, it’s the words that speak louder than the actions.
[hijack]
In Pearl Jam’s video for “Jeremy”, there was a scene (cut from the final version) where the students were seen reciting the pledge with the American flag as their background. Then, they all raised their arms in the Nazi salute and the background was fire. I’m not sure what to think of this, but I find it interesting.
[/hijack]

19

Got a little ranty on my last one, and I didn’t and don’t mean to turn this into a debate, but its kind of a sore subject with me. I don’t care if people want to say the pledge or not. That is a choice. Standing however, in my opinion, is a matter of respect. The reasons people give for not wanting to stand, I don’t understand. Probably because I tend to be a bit more patriotic than some. It has the word God in it? So what. That’s my point with money. The word God is everywhere. Believe in God or not, that’s a choice. I’m not religious, as I’ve said, but it’s beyond me how anyone can simply find the word God offensive. But it’s when people don’t want to stand out of respect for the flag and the country, and why we have a flag and a country, that irritate me. However, in infuriates me when I see the hypocrisy of “It’s my constitutional right not to honor my flag and my country that gives me the freedom not to”. I especially get a little hot under the collar simply because high schools are filled with students that use “their rights” to gain an advantage simply to be disrespectful and annoying. When I hear a reason for not standing that makes sense other than, “I just don’t want to”, I can grudgingly accept it, such in the case of the aforementioned jehovahs. Otherwise, in my opinion, it’s just a way to rebel a little against a society that allows you to. Slap my ass, and call me Judy the Patriot. I think the pledge is a little silly myself, but I still say it if called for, and will always stand for the Anthem, and it just boggles my mind when other people feel no need to do so.

20

This one has some serious issues attached to it that I think would be better suited for Great Debates, so I’m moving it.