The pledge: should I stand? (different)

Great Debates
21

all the patriots here are saying you have to stand out of respect for the country [or respect for something].

IF this is a great country/great country to live in, it is because of individual freedoms. forcing someone to stand during a quasi-religious rite is not freedom. if joff-rey must stand then this is not a country worth respecting.

most people i’ve met that are overtly patriotic have never been outside their own country, and even more rarely have lived overseas. by living in another country one gains perspective. if you’ve lived in only one country you cannot say that yours is the best in the world, you have nothing to compare it to!

back to joff-rey: one day you will get out of school, and you will have more freedom. but even then the same types of people will tell you have to do this and that. don’t listen to them. your life is indeed yours, and you should do with it what you feel is right.

don’t pledge if you don’t want to. don’t stand if you don’t want to. don’t say grace before dinner if you don’t want to. don’t bow your head for grace if you don’t want to.

where is the respect from these others to one’s lack or difference of religion or patriotism?? why must the non-patriot or differently religioused show respect for the patriot and the deist but not the other way around?? when has the patriot ever been forced to show respect to someone expressing dislike or distrust or even jsut disinterest in their country?? how bout on a daily basis??

you don’t have to love this country in the same way as someone else in order to live here. you don’t even have to like this country at all! you just have to be born here [or immigrate here]. the phrase “love it or leave it” has no more validity than “hate it or leave it”.

22

I have to disagree a bit, I don’t think that anyone is saying you have to stand, but that you should stand. I think that our nation has done (and continues to do) a great many wonderful things, and deserves some measure of respect for that. To refuse to stand, in my eyes, shows disrespect for our nation and the people who have died defending it. Just like your dinner companions who, out of respect for you, shouldn’t force you to say grace, out of respect for them, you shouldn’t start chowing down while they’re saying it, I would just consider that rude.

You do not have to stand, but I do not have to respect you, and neither do your teachers. I knew guys in highschool that wouldn’t stand, too. They had no defensible reason for doing so, they just wanted to be ‘rebellious’. I have no respect for this kind of phony rebellion. On the other hand, if you have a real reason for not standing, discuss it with your teachers. If you are well thought out in your reasoning, and have a valid concern, perhaps they will respect you more for sitting than they would if you stood up just to make your life a little easier.

23

Ok, I think I’m ready to write up another reply. I had one (very long) all written out, but then it disappeared. >:( Here’s the general gist of what I said.

South: I don’t sit to defy authority.

Turbo Dog: I really and truly have issues with it; I’m not taking advantages of my rights just to goof off. It’s not the cool thing to do, in fact i’m pressured by those around me in the classroom to stand. I’d rather not yank these certain teachers chains, these are two of my favorite teachers. I didn’t quite understand that one thing, it is respectful to others to say the pledge you mean? I think that it is actually disrespectful to those who mean the pledge, if I say and don’t mean it. And I do, in fact, plan to leave the country at 18.

Irishman: I sit quietly, disrupting no one during the pledge.

FireUnderpantsBoobs: I didn’t quite get your post. whas that sarcasm? please excuse my ignorance :wink: Oh, and I must say thats a cool name.

Czarcasm: I feel honoured ;D

Dixie: thanks for the support.

Relax, it’s water soluble.
[this sig hand-written.]

24

Since you’re neither a slave nor an automaton, it’s absolutely nobody’s business the reason you choose for yourself to stand or not stand for, or to recite or not recite the words to, the Pledge of Allegiance.

As this country is very big on individual liberties, it’s quite amusing to me (a sad kind of amusing) all the folks who rationalize the dictatorial stance that someone not only should, but must stand during the pledge.

A semi-related issue is the folks who’re attempting to force prayer in schools on everyone else. I, for one, have no problem with prayer (being a semi-active LDS); however, if I’m present at a public-school gathering of any sort and someone starts up with an oral prayer, I’ll immediately get up and shout George Carlin’s “Seven Words You Can’t Say on Television” from memory–the entire spiel.

Prayer, and the Pledge, are obviously individual things–let’s keep them both that way.

25

I honestly was serious. I was going to say something to the effect of “I’m not joking”. I don’t know why I didn’t. Sorry about that.

26

Joff-Rey, I’m sorry if it sounded like I was thinking those were the reasons you weren’t standing. I feel kinda bad now :(. Those were just some reasons that I know of that people don’t stand. What I was trying to say was that you should gather up all the reasons for and against the situation and then decide. (shoulda said that before I guess.) Ah well good luck w/ your teachers.

27

Sitting down during the pledge of allegiance because your just lazy is a perfectly fine reason. It is a tradition, which has no real meaning except to a small amount of zealots. (I hope thats not crossing the line into the pit, wouldn’t want to have to move this thread again.)

28

Some of you are making a lot of assumptions about what we “patriotic zealots” think. Just because we feel others should have the right to sit during the national anthem and pledge doesn’t mean we have have to like it.

29

If I could do it all over, I’d stand on some days, sit on others, just so nobody would confuse me with a Jehovah’s Witness or, worse, a German tourist. However, I still say, “…One nation, UNDERDOG, INVISIBLE, with liberty and justice…” I think our pledge of allegiance is very important to reclaim from Christian cheesefuck fascists. Democracy is a true religion.

30

Joff-Rey,
The main reason I assumed that you were “being cool” was the fact that you asked for the opinion of people on a message board about whether or not you should do what your beliefs tell you. I apologize for what was, at the time, a bit of a personal attack on you, and again, that wasn’t my intent.

Since you say that you actually do have issues with it, then speak to your teachers about them, if possible. I assume that your issues are personal reasons, as you haven’t stated them here. I’m also going out on a limb and assuming that you are not “American”? If that is the case, then no, I don’t believe you should stand, and wouldn’t expect you to stand. I never said that anyone has to say the pledge. That is a choice. My issue is simply with standing.

I also never said that anyone should be forced to stand. That is not right. I also never said that anyone HAS to stand. I only believe that if you are an American citizen, that you should, for the reason I stated earlier. It’s a matter of common courtesy that takes 15 seconds to honor the country that gives you individual rights. I served my country, been shot at, had friends get killed, blah blah blah… I don’t give a rat’s ass if you honor me or my friends, as most people don’t give a shit either way. But to not extend the courtesy to the foundation of the nation? If you say that it’s your “right” not to stand, remember that it’s the country that gave you that “right”. Yes, it’s a sort of Catch-22. But you aren’t signing a contract, or going off to fight a war. It’s standing on your feet for 15 seconds to, for lack of a better phrase at the moment, “thank the country for giving you the freedoms and rights that you have”, whether you say anything or not.

And to answer an earlier statement, I’ve been in many other countries, and what really saddens me the most, is the fact that in many countries with far less freedoms than we have, the people are much more supportive, knowledgeable and patriotic of their land than we are. In other lands, many people who don’t like their country, government, it’s policies or even their leaders, will risk death to leave. Here, we have the freedom to just sit back and bitch about any bullshit reason we can dream up to be offended by.

31

padeye:

and we [i anyway] don’t have to like it that you stand up publicly to do your pledge. but you’ll notice i never tried to disuade anyone from doing as they wished, nor did i even state that i disliked it. it is irrelevent. why do you feel the need to express your displeasure at our actions??

32

Rock on, dixie.

33

My solution to this when I was a student was to simply edit out the parts I disagreed with. My resulting personal pledge was “I pledge allegiance to The United States of America, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” Patriotic symbolism is ok, but I’ve always felt that what the symbols represent (the nation, the people, rights, freedoms, veterans) is far more important than the symbols themselves.

–sublight.

34

In this case, because he asked on a public message board.

35

no he didn’t ask if you liked him sitting, he asked:

36

I will not pledge allegiance to anyone or anything except my immediate family. It is stupid to make such a vow to a country that has the power to send my sons off to fight and die in a war in some far off place for anything but the defense of American soil. I served seven years in the military, I pay my taxes and I obey the law. If that isn’t enough, too bad.

I had jury duty last month. I was the only one out of about 300 who didn’t stand and vow allegiance to the flag. I got a few dirty looks, but for the most part it went unnoticed.

37

I never recited the pledge in high school because I felt wrong spouting patriotism to a country that wouldn’t acknowledge me as a citizen. I stood during the pledge in classrooms (but not during assemblies) - mainly because I didn’t want to make a scene.