The most theologically earth-shattering moment of my life was when I learned the meaning of one simple term. The term? “Galactic Supercluster”. It didn’t stop me from believing in God, but I no longer overestimate the interest God has in my personal life.
A couple of quick points -
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The discussion of people who say that they believe, but don’t go to church or otherwise allow religion to guide their daily lives… This reminds me of the phrase “belief in belief”. That is to say that people believe that the act of believing in God is a good thing - and a goal by itself. But, going further than checking that box is a job best left to the priests / monks / thinking professionals. I’m not saying that this is a good thing. But, I’ll take religious apathy over a suicide bomber any day.
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I rarely talk about religion, because I know how deeply some people can be wounded. Just the other day, though, someone approached me and asked if it was true that I was really an atheist. I said that, indeed, the rumours are true. He asked me why I was mad at God. I have never had anyone ask me this before. What an odd way of thinking about it. To him, God is so real that it was like speaking about a family member. “I am angry with my sister, so I don’t speak with her any more.” But, the sister still exists. I just ignore her now.
For God to be this real to someone made me feel very sad, because I knew that in order to explain my position, I would have to destroy this notion of God, or, minimally, run this risk. Trying to be gentle, I just explained that I feel about his God the same way that he feels about Thor. He didn’t know who Thor was. So, I substituted “Batman”. You’re not angry with Batman, but you don’t believe that he exists.
And, now, he’s convinced that I think that he thinks that Batman is real… and he’s spreading this around to the coworkers. Which, of course, is why I try very hard to stay out of these things. -
Michael Keaton is Batman.
“Atheist” is self-identified, and it is from the Pew Research Foundation, although the exact percentage seems to vary from 8-24%. According to the same studies, most agnostics (55%) also believe in God.
Don’t be sorry - it doesn’t make any sense to claim to believe in God and not “really” believe or to believe in God and be an atheist or agnostic. Atheists as a group don’t always think thru their faith, just like nominal theists often don’t. Or that they are using “atheist” as a synonym for “no religious affiliation”, which is useful to keep in mind the next time someone talks about the rise of atheism and the inevitability of the end of faith.
Regards,
Shodan
You seemed to be a little confused-atheists have no religious faith of their own to “think thru”. We would have to see how that survey was worded to find out what went wrong, but it seems rather obvious that some people got confused when answering.
This is not a good analogy. I don’t hate God. I just don’t believe in the concept.
A better analogy would be this: You can see that the emperor has no clothes. You see his little pee-pee and buttcrack and everything. For years you pretended that he had clothes because everyone else told you he did, and you didn’t want be branded as disloyal and kicked out of the kingdom. Then one day you grew a spine and decided to stop pretending.
Because you know how much pressure there is to say the emperor has clothes (and how lovely clothes they are!), you simply cannot believe that everyone who says they believe are being 100% honest. Maybe the majority are telling the truth. People are capable of believing lots of crazy things. But not all of them believe. You’ve seen plenty of so-called loyalists averting their eyes in the emperor’s presence.
Why is it so arrogant to be skeptical of what people self-report when it comes to something like this?
This conversation has suddenly made me think of a couple of testimonies of North Korea ex-patriots I’ve read. When Kim Jong-il died, his people were expected to publicly mourn. One of the guys (who would soon after escape the country) said that he faked own grief; he actually didn’t feel anything at all. At the time he assumed everyone else was being genuine, but then later he realized that he hadn’t been the only one to not care. His own girlfriend had put on the same show (IIRC).
That is only a sensible analogy if the existence of God is matter of opinion. Onions can be putrid to one person and not to another and everyone’s fine with that. Can God exist for one person but be fictional to another?
(Incidentally, the next time someone asks me to come to church I’m going to say, “sorry, God doesn’t exist for me”.)
It’s more like someone saying, “This stock is 100% guaranteed to go through the roof within the next week! Like 10000-tuple your money! You should invest in it, or at least join me in going around talking to other people about how they should invest in it! In fact, after next week hyperinflation is going to kick in and all money not invested in this stock will be worthless! I also totally want to be totally rich and have some money to invest, so I’m putting 5% of my money into this stock!”
And we’re saying, “If it really is 100% guaranteed, and you really want to be rich, and anything not invested in this is going to be worthless soon, why aren’t you putting all of your money into it? Your actions lead me to think that you don’t really believe your statements that this is a sure thing and anything else will be worthless.”
I can assure you I believe that stuff, and I have no reason to doubt most Christians if they say they believe it too.
In 2011, I remember loads of my coworkers getting on the “The World Is Ending In 2012” band wagon. I made them this offer -
Sell me your house for $5000, sale effective Dec 31, 2012. I’ll pay in advance. That way, if you’re right and the world ends sometime in 2012, you get to keep your house right up to the end AND you get to spend my $5000 on whatever you want. But, on January 1st, 2013, I own the house.
Do you know how many people sold their homes? Not one. This is because, when the idea stopped being an idea and started influencing their lives, they backed down. They believed the world was going to end, but weren’t about to sell their homes. That would’ve been reckless. Referencing what I said before, these people “believe in belief”. All that is required of them is to say that they believe - better to leave all logical consequences to someone else.
But, the suicide bombers? Those people would’ve sold their homes. They really, really believe the things they say. It may be hard for the rest of us to grasp the reality of their convictions, because we don’t share them. But, they really do believe.
No, I am not at all confused. Atheists who claim to believe in God are confused. Because that’s contradictory.
Atheists are sometimes confused about their beliefs. I am sure this comes as a suprise to you, but it is the case nonetheless.
Regards,
Shodan
When asked: “Do you believe in God”, many people answer as if the question was: "Are you a good person, a moral person? "
That is why the majority of Americans think that atheists are willfully amoral, bad-on-purpose people.
Religion has brainwashed believers that you can’t be good without a religion. History has shown us that the two don’t have that much in common.
Yes, I believe that actually and literally. I accept that it did indeed occur based upon faith.
Maybe. Or maybe they have doubts but are afraid to express them. Or they have doubts and think that having doubts is sinful, so they will do something to prove they don’t have doubts when they really do. Almost like a dare, only with themselves.
People are weird.
I was born into a family that went to church (from time to time) and believed in god. That was the extent of it. No one ever spoke of god (unless it included the word “damn”), no one read the bible, and no one discussed religious topics.
My opinion is that people “believe in god” because they were brought up to, not based on any decision that they themselves made. They look at the Ten Commandments and see that they have already broken several, with no apparent repercussions. So they tell everyone that they believe in god and are Christians, and all atheists are going to hell because they aren’t. Then they go out drinking and having sex with people that are not their spouses, never read the bible, because that would tell them that what they are doing is wrong. If they go to church at all, it’s to hear who the pastor wants them to hate this week.
These people say they believe in god that they are Christians, but never do what Jesus told them to do (feed the poor, attend to the sick, take care of widows and orphans, etc., etc., etc.). They are not Christians, but believe themselves to be, because the only path to the salvation of their eternal soul is the belief that Jesus is god’s son. This makes it too easy to say, “I’m a Christian!” and then go spit on a Muslim (or anyone that looks like they could be).
Please note that I am not referring to all self-proclaimed Christians; there are many who truly believe and try to pattern their life after the example that Jesus set. Those Christians are, however, in the minority.
I believe that if everyone that claimed to be a Christian actually read the bible and paid attention to the lessons Jesus taught, this country would be a much better place.
My point is, I’m telling you I believe in God. Do you believe me or no? If yes, then why don’t you believe everyone who says it? If no, why don’t you believe me? These are hypotheticals, I’m not really interested in your answer, I don’t give a crap if you believe me when I say it or not…
…my only point is: If anyone is saying it as I’m saying it and feeling it, they’re not lying and if anyone isn’t, they’re not someone who I think should be considering themselves a believer in the first place.
ETA Actually, I did have another point…my other point, by the way, was “giving an example of a thought someone has about something and how they think that just because something is the case for them, it must be the case for everyone”. “I don’t like onions, ergo, others must be lying when they say they like them” and “I don’t believe in God, ergo, others must be lying when they say they believe.” Both are misguided assumptions based on personal preferences, opinion or not. It holds true with opinions, thoughts, choices, beliefs, all sorts of things, in my opinion.
To further clarify and make it more simple:
Both examples are a statement of fact followed by a misguided assumption.
“I don’t like onions” <----Fact
“I don’t believe in God” <-----Fact
“…therefore, everyone else must secretly not like them” <—bad assumption
“…therefore, everyone else must secretly not believe” <— bad assumption
Taken like that, which is how I meant it, it’s a perfect comparison/analogy. Both are things that are already facts (to you), followed by a gross assumption based on those facts. The fact that it’s about something that is opinion based or factual based is irrelevant. “I don’t like onions” is already a factual statement.
Anyway, sorry for the slight onion hijack. I’m not really interested in debating religion anyway and always tell myself I won’t so I’ll resist from replying again, haha.
When people are taught from birth that certain beliefs are right to have, they may instinctively state that they have said beliefs out of a sense of self-preservation even when assured that there will be no consequence for stating something different from that belief.
Well put. Or to put it another way, “I can’t believe that you are really [insert your political party here]. It must be because you are trying to fit in with other people who are that political party. There is no way you actually believe in that party’s platform”, etc.
I’m not entirely sure why people think it’s appropriate to decide for others what they truly believe. Theological mansplaining isn’t going to endear you to anyone.
FTR, I am a Christian and I literally and actually believe in the virgin birth of Christ and in Christ’s death and resurrection - to respond to another strange opinion offered about Christians earlier in this thread.
That’s a perfect description for it.
I believe my parents when they say they believe in God. Because even though they are flawed, they usually act consistently with their faith. They spend more time going to church than anyone else I know. They read the Bible constantly. They really try to act in the way they feel Christ wants them to. They feel bad when they sin.
But do I think everyone who professes a belief in God are like my parents? No. Most Christians are not as devout as my parents. A good deal of them have never read a single book of the Bible, let alone the whole thing. Many of them go to church begrudgingly and infrequently. Many of them only pray when they are in moments of desperation, like when they are sitting in a jail cell or fixing to be thrown into one.
So I can believe you when you say you believe in God, while simultaneously doubting some other guy who says the same thing.
Lemme axe you something. If the survey had asked “Would you willingly sacrifice yourself to save America from terrorists?” and 86% of the respondents had responded in the affirmative, do you think it would be arrogant to be skeptical? Personally, I don’t. I think one should be prepared to explain why they are skeptical, since skepticism for the sake of skepticism is just as stupid as accepting everything at face value. But I don’t think it would be so outrageous to say, “Eh, I seriously doubt all those folks would really die for their country. Otherwise, why aren’t 86% of Americans in the armed services? And everyone likes to imagine they are heroic. Who wants to be accused of being an unpatriotic coward? No one. So somebody is lying up in here.”
That’s not being arrogant, in my opinion. That’s just using critical thinking skills.
I know you’re just using this as an analogy, but this is a great example of what I meant by saying that if you say someone has to do something to be consistent, it’s important that that thing actually be required by consistency. I don’t think you’d have to be in the armed services to actually be willing to die for your country.
By the same token, I don’t think you’d have to give all of your money to the poor to be actually a believer in Christianity.
Some of it can be “I don’t live up to the standards I’ve set for myself.” Some of it can also be “I don’t believe the standard you’re trying to set for me is applicable.”