Wow, squirrels eat birds… I thought that pic was photoshopped. I guess I was wrong. Now I see why they take off like that.
Upon further investigation, squirrel have even eaten Dogs!!!
Holy shit.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys]
Don’t know if the OP includes birds or just mammals. I can say by experience that most species get used to the presence of man. Not crows and ravens. They are so damn wary you can never approach them. Colibri can probably confirm.
[/QUOTE]
Crows and ravens probably would, if you could find a place where they were not persecuted by humans. (That is, not persecuted over a wide enough area that they would not learn from other crows or ravens from nearby areas that humans can be dangerous.) Certainly jays may become very tame in parks.
[QUOTE=Priceguy]
I’d like to see a double-blind study done on this.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
So would I. 
[/QUOTE]
Eww!! Get a room, you two! 
[QUOTE=Colibri]
Certainly jays may become very tame in parks.
[/QUOTE]
So do pigeons. They don’t even seem to remember all the times I had to kick a path through them to reach the door to my workplace. (Maybe if I actually killed & ate them, they’d coo a different tune…)
It’s my understanding that the African Wild Cat – direct ascestor of today’s domestic house cat – has no innate fear of humans, or at least much less than other small predators.
[QUOTE=Blake]
Can we please see some evidence for this claim? Any evidence at all?
And can we please see some evidence for this claim too.
If you read the thread I linked to above you will see that naive animals not only don’t get disturbed when stalked, they don’t even get disturbed when their companion are killed in front of them.
Similarly most people never see most animals. They simply vanish as soon as humans come blundering within a hundred yards. Their caution has nothing whatsoever to do with the mode of approach.
So can we possibly see any evidence for this claim that animals show more fear if stalked than if approached to the same distance by someone doing cartwheels and singing the “Star Spangled Banner”.
[/QUOTE]
Breath smells
http://home.netcom.com/~axleplus/stuff/veggie/bodyodor.html
*Moving on to a simple vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian example, heat up your oven to 98.6 degrees and place a tomato and piece of meat on it. Check back in a few hours to compare the rate of decay and the resulting odors.
Now, there are other factors to consider as certain foods tend to produce unpleasant body odors regardless of meat-content; garlic (as mentioned earlier) and curry (or other strong spices) diets can produce sharp results. However, generally, a diet of predominantly plant based intake will result in much more pleasing body odors than one consisting of the rapidly decaying flesh of dead creatures every time.
While there has not been a scientific study to back up this assumption (how do you quantify something on the level of what smells “better?”), informal polls and interviews generally result in the concession that when it comes to body odors, vegetarians usually win out…A New York Times (1998) poll on the streets of New York City found that “vegetarians smell and taste better” and “have more stamina and energy in the sack.” The latter part of that survey, likely coincides with studies relating to diet and h**ow restricted arteries affect sexual performance due to blood flow. "*
http://www.newveg.av.org/veglovers.htm
"We posed the question “Do vegetarians make better lovers” to both veggies and meat-eaters on the streets of New York City, to vegetarian chat groups on the internet and to a few of our friends. This is not a scientific poll or an update to the Kinsey or Masters & Johnson studies (the groundbreaking research on human sexuality), but just the reflections and experiences of those who took part in our survey. People referred to cleaner bodies, more appealing skin, fresher breath and saliva, and sweeter “love juices.”
“Just as garlic finds its way through the pores as well as through our breath,” said Bob Gotch, a long-time vegetarian living in Alamita, Calif., “meat and dairy with all their added hormones, chemicals and preservatives are likely to end up in our bloodstream and therefore in the love juices’ of sex.” In Berry’s opinion, carnivores even find each other’s smell repugnant, as evidenced by the fortune spent on perfumes and deodorants in countries with meat-centered diets."
Note that some of these cites seem rather biased, and like I said, I’d like to see a double-blind study of this myself. But in general, Vegetarians claim that human carnivore breath smells distinct and bad.
Stalking
"*Once you have singled out an animal to try and approach you have to not act like a human. Humans are, by nature and design, a predator. Most animals will run when a person approaches, even the larger moose, unless cornered. Walking squatted down, or even on your hands and knees, will make you look smaller and less threatening… Camouflage gives a sneaking feeling, much like a predator sneaking up on prey. Animals respond to movement. Both quick movement and very slow movements are a threat to the animal. Many people trying to approach an animal will move very slowly. In the animal kingdom this is considered stalking prey. Your best bet is to try and match you speed with the speed of the animal you are approaching. This can easily be judged by watching the animal.
Your Eyes:
Your next biggest consideration is your eyes. AVOID EYE CONTACT. This is very, very important. Again, direct eye contact is a predatory move. Predators, like mountain lions will stare at their prey, usually, in close proximity, this will cause the animal to freeze. When the prey is frozen, they predator will pounce. This gives the predator a second or so jump on the animal.
When approaching never go towards the animal in a straight line. Make a zigzag path in the animal’s direction. This side to side motion will appear more like a grazing animal than a predator. * "
http://www.shutterfreaks.com/Tips/StalkingWildlife.html
“*
You will have to move very slowly and your prey is watching closely. Your goal is to be non-threatening. Moving in the direction of your prey is sure to be noticed. Watch carefully for any muscle twitches or small movements that might hint at a panic. A zigzag approach can work well, but so can the straight-in approach. Take slow ½ steps and watch your footing.*”
Animals being frightened of humans:
http://www.nps.gov/applications/release/Detail.cfm?ID=329
“Wild animals, which establish breeding populations after being introduced by humans, are termed exotic. Feral animals, by contrast, were introduced from domestic animals and established breeding populations in the wild. Exotics are generally more frightened of humans, while feral animals can be very friendly to people.”
“Wild birds are very frightened of humans and are often stressed just by being held in captivity”
http://www.pawskids.org/wildlife/wild_pets.html
“Wild animals, even those born in captivity (in a house) are scared of humans and do not understand what is expected of them. Being scared and being bored can lead to severe stress, behavior problems, illness and sometimes death.”
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/coned/newsletter/2005/nremall.htm
"*Safe Human / Wildlife Interaction—
Wild animals are naturally wary of people. * "
Now, lets see some cites for your claims of (there’s nine cites, you have provided exactly zero cites for your claims so far):“What we can say is that in every environment that has been encountered where the animals have had no experience of humans the animals have absolutley no fear of humans. Peopel have been able to simply walk up and hit them on the head. That allows to come to a very strong conclusion that animals have absolutely no innate fear of humans.” and "If you read the thread I linked to above you will see that naive animals not only don’t get disturbed when stalked, they don’t even get disturbed when their companion are killed in front of them.
Similarly most people never see most animals. They simply vanish as soon as humans come blundering within a hundred yards. Their caution has nothing whatsoever to do with the mode of approach.
All my experience tells me that it is completely untrue. Animals fear being approached by humans regardless of the mode of that approach."
Note that your statements “That allows to come to a very strong conclusion that animals have absolutely no innate fear of humans.” "… naive animals not only don’t get disturbed when stalked" are directly contradicted by your statement "All my experience tells me that it is completely untrue. Animals fear being approached by humans regardless of the mode of that approach."
Thank you.
[QUOTE=DrDeth]
Moving on to a simple vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian example, heat up your oven to 98.6 degrees and place a tomato and piece of meat on it. Check back in a few hours to compare the rate of decay and the resulting odors.
[/quote]
Oh, for the love of God.
[QUOTE=Ottoerotic]
Wow, squirrels eat birds… I thought that pic was photoshopped. I guess I was wrong. Now I see why they take off like that.
Upon further investigation, squirrel have even eaten Dogs!!!
[/QUOTE]
As the picture did not show the squirrel attacking and killing the bird, it’s more likely that the squirrel was feeding on an already dead bird.
As to the dog-eating squirrels, it’s more likely that, again, the squirrels were feeding on an already dead animal, and the story was embellished.
[QUOTE=Colibri]
Crows and ravens probably would, if you could find a place where they were not persecuted by humans. (That is, not persecuted over a wide enough area that they would not learn from other crows or ravens from nearby areas that humans can be dangerous.) Certainly jays may become very tame in parks.
[/QUOTE]
Jays and magpies are now found in villages and suburbs but are still very circumspect.
Crows have not been persecuted in the last 50 years, and ravens are protected in most Alpine countries since the 1950s, and they haven’t lost a wee bit of their wariness.
[QUOTE=Blake]
Squirrels routinely huntand eat small birds as the photo posted by Burrido proves so graphically. They aren’t fantastic predators but they will eat meat when they can catch it. It’s almost certain that any bird in your area has seen squirrels hunting and eating birds.
Birds are frightened of squirrels with good reason.
[/QUOTE]
Both of your cites say that squirrels eat eggs and nestlings, not adult birds.
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys]
Jays and magpies are now found in villages and suburbs but are still very circumspect.
[/quote]
I did say parks. Certainly in the US both jays and magpies can become very tame in campgrounds and other such situations. Exactly how tame they become depends largely how they are treated locally.
I assume from this you are referring to the situation in Europe, since crows are certainly persecuted in the US. Frankly, I would like to see some independent confirmation before I would believe your assertions. If they are still wary, it’s almost certainly because they are still being harassed in some fashion, even if officially protected.
That would be reason enough for birds to be wary of them, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if a squirrel took an occasional adult bird too.
However, it’s not even necessary for squirrels to eat birds to explain **Ottoerotic’s **observation. First, squirrels may displace birds from food by chasing them simply because they are larger and could do the birds damage if they came into contact. Second, birds may wish to avoid any rapidly approaching squirrel-sized mammal as a precaution just in case it might be a predator.
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys]
Don’t know if the OP includes birds or just mammals. I can say by experience that most species get used to the presence of man. Not crows and ravens. They are so damn wary you can never approach them. Colibri can probably confirm.
[/QUOTE]
All other things being equal, it seems that larger birds tend to be more wary of the proximity/approach of humans (and presumably other potential predators) than smaller ones. I suspect that a significant factor in this is the time it takes them to get airborne; small birds just flick their wings and they are gone pretty much instantly, whereas large birds like many corvids and gulls have to labour a little to get aloft, taking time - not desirable when a predator is breathing down your neck.