Whenever any debate over sep. of church and state comes up, such as the recent 10 Commandments in the Courthouse issue, someone always accuses the left of trying to remove religion from all public life. Example: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/8/20/224531.shtml
This always burned be up a little, because I personally want a strong seperation of church and state, but couldn’t care less about what people do in public churches and such. It seems to me like the people making these accusation are either purposely misrepresenting the issue, or are simply ignorant.
But it occurred to me that just because I personally don’t care about religion in public, that doesn’t mean that others feel the same way. Is there any support to the accusations that there are many on the left in the US today who want to remove religion from public life? Has a single person who could be considered a modern example of a left-leaning politician or leader ever stated anything like that position?
I am a leftie, and my answer is no.
I cannot see how the 10 commandments so offend people so.
Its like the world will be destroyed just because they are on display!
But do you think that those who think they should be removed from a courthouse, must also be for removing religion from ALL public life? Or do you see that most if not virtually all make a distinction between government buildings and “all public life”?
Yes, I see the difference.
I just don’t see why its such an uproar.
Has nothing like this happened before, say with another religion, or anything else that shouldn’t be in “government” places.?
Until you’ve faced the kind of bias that a public official shows when he points at the Bible on his desk or the Jesus picture on his wall and says ‘If you’d start acting more like a normal American, people wouldn’t call you a goat-sacrificing baby-killer and threaten to beat you up.’ it is hard to understand.
These kind of experiences have lead me to react to seeing such religious items in government buildings and the ‘halls of justice’ and beginning to suspect that this is not a place where my right to live in peace with my own (lack of) religion. If someone believes strongly enough that Christians are the only ‘real’ Americans, are they going to do their job and give me equal protection?
Get rid of the Ten Commandments on public land. If Justice Moore is so crazy about 'em, why not just have the monument on his front lawn or something?
I’m an atheist, and I’m not in favor of “removing religion from public life” as I see it. I support the right of people to worship as they please, pray in public, distribute religious tracts, preach on the street if they want to…but keep this sort of thing away from government property.
And for goodness’ sake, take “In God We Trust” off of the US’s coins!
It’s a misdirection tactic used by the right. The “left” (most of whom are theists) just doesn’t want state sponsored religion. Nativity scenes on front lawns or in front of churches or on any private property do not bother lefties. Nativity scenes in a city hall or a courthouse are a different matter. Most lefties would vigorously support the right of any kid to pray in school to any god any time he wants. What we object to is a teacher, who is funded by the taxpayer, forcing kids to pray in a school which they are mandated to attend. The government has no business advocating any kind of religious doctrine of any kind; not even the existence or non-existence of deities. Personally, I find it very distasteful to see such customs as swearing in with Bibles in official settings but that at least is optional. I also don’t like to see preachers giving eulogies at presidential inaugurations or opening congress with prayers but my objections aren’t going to mean anything. In spite of our best intentions with the law, the majority religion is always going to roll smugly over any minorities.
Get rid of the Ten Commandments on public land. If Justice Moore is so crazy about 'em, why not just have the monument on his front lawn or something?
I’m an atheist, and I’m not in favor of “removing religion from public life” as I see it. I support the right of people to worship as they please, pray in public, distribute religious tracts, preach on the street if they want to…but keep this sort of thing away from government property.
And for goodness’ sake, take “In God We Trust” off of the US’s coins!
Get rid of the Ten Commandments on public land. If Justice Moore is so crazy about 'em, why not just have the monument on his front lawn or something?
I’m an atheist, and I’m not in favor of “removing religion from public life” as I see it. I support the right of people to worship as they please, pray in public, distribute religious tracts, preach on the street if they want to…but keep this sort of thing away from government property.
And for goodness’ sake, take “In God We Trust” off of the US’s coins!
Personally, I have no beef with the 10 commandments, but I do have a beef with them being displayed in a courthouse with the use of public funds. A courthouse is used to enforce the law of man, not the law of god, and our current laws are not derived directly from the 10 commandments. Also, I do not want my tax dollar to fund religion of any sort.
As to the OP, no. People should be able to worship in their churches without trouble, but they just don’t seem happy to leave it in church.
I also think it’s a tactic. But I have to admit it’s at least possible there is somebody out there who might actually hold this “remove religion from all public life” view. Surely nobody significant, though, and to say “the left” hold this view is as true as saying “the right” holds Ann Coulter’s views.
I’m not sure about public officials, but the ACLU sure seems to attack every example of religion in the public sphere.
As a non-lefty, though, I can say that I’d like to see us get rid of references to God in public documents and buildings. I don’t care what politicians say, but documents and buildings should be transcendent of any one person and apply to all citizens.
Maybe you’re just talking about this thread but I’d like to point out that the vast majority of those who would classify themselves as political liberals also believe in God and most of them are Christian. Hillary Clinton, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, James Carville and Ted Kennedy are all Christians. You are not as rare a bird as you might imagine.
I’m not a “leftie.” In fact I consider myself somewhat conservative.
That being said, I am opposed to all government endorsement of religion, whether it is a 10 commandments monument in a courthouse, “In God We Trust” on coins, public school teachers leading students in the pledge, ministers on the congressional payroll, or any of the other numerous ways that religion gets pushed on an everyday basis.
This is very different from being anti-religious or “wanting to remove religion from all public life.” I don’t want to do that, and I don’t think many “lefties” want that either.
What I want is for the government to not endorse any religion, nor support any religion implicitly or explicitly.
Also, I don’t really see this as a left/right issue. When the pledge decision came out, there was a bill in the Senate to support the pledge. The results of the vote? 99-0, with one abstention. If you want seperation of church and state, voting for democrats isn’t really going to help.
Can you give an example of the ACLU trying to remove religion from the public sphere, that wouldn’t be also be well under the realm of sep. of church and state?
No I can’t. Did you think I implied there would be?
My point was that the ACLU is generally considered left leaning and they have a long history of supporting court cases to remove religioin from the public sphere. Isn’t that what you were asking about in the OP?
John Mace, what I’m looking for are examples of where the left is going beyond simple SOCAS and trying to remove religion from just a public area. Unless I hear of specific cases, I’ll have to assume the ACLU is not guilty of this, and is simply being misrepresented on this issue, like pretty much all the left.