Not sure if similar debates have come up in the past but this article is raging through email forwards within the Big 4:
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The article is humorous in nature, and many of this guy’s articles are very funny in my opinion for anyone that has worked in a similar atmosphere. But this particular article brings up an interesting point.
Are those firms taking advantage of young workers who are neither married or have kids so they can pay them normal salaries and force them to work 12-14 hours a day during busy seasons?
I’m sure thye do work people pretty hard, but from their employees I’ve known, it’s one of the Holy Grails for young accounting grads, just to get an entry-level job. They get paid pretty well, and the job is very flexible, so it seems reasonable to me.
Big four employees, and employees at any prestigious firm, have the option to quit, and if their jobs really were that bad, they’d leave. The fact that they’re staying on suggests that they’re satisfied with what they’re getting (which is more than just salary).
it’s an up or out philosophy at these places. Up, meaning one day becoming a partner and making the big bucks, or out meaning you can’t take it and quit.
I’ve employed IBM, Deloitte, PWC, and KPMG over my career and they are all pretty much the same. Entry-level employees are trained on the job at the client’s expense (causing a constant stream of arguing in a PMO-type environment and budgetary meetings), a few seasoned SME’s that do the brunt of the work because they are “oh so close” to making partner, and the partners, who basically don’t bring much to the table. They are window dressing, and they are expensive window dressing.
I’ve known many who have dropped out, and a few who have climbed the mountain top. I’ve never known anyone to turn down a partnership (or whatever they are calling them these days - principals?), so it has to be a pretty good buck to become one. But the ones I’ve seen make it earn it.
I’ve known people who are on airplanes twice a week for 2-3 years (including vacations), so it’s not much of a life. But out of school, you can make a lot of money, pocket the per diem, and generally have a good time. The problem comes when/if you want to settle down, have kids, etc. It can be done, but it takes its toll.
I like the ones that are “oh so close” to partnership. They can taste it, they work hard, and they are worth the money. Unfortunately, on a team of 40 consultants, you are lucky to get 4 of these SME’s, and the rest are generally garbage. College grads who don’t have a clue about the project you are working on and fumbling their way through on the client’s dime. Not necessarily their fault… they go where they are sent. But as a client, it’s a pain in the ass to manage them and put up with the on the job training.
I’ve been offered positions with the big 6 (I guess now the big 4), but it’s not for me. The travel alone would kill me.
Personally, I would say yes (now that I’m in-house). Similarly, lawyers at large law firms work 80 hr weeks, too, but we get paid more. Knowing the career track for these guys at Big 4, I would’ve just stuck around 3 more years at school to get my JD. Though, the turnover rate at Large Law Firms are much higher, so I guess it evens out (but Big 4 have to travel way more…hmmm, I think the lawyers have it better).
The salary is pretty good, and there’s a clear career path once you’re in the Big 4. you work like crazy for a few years, then it’s off to industry to become a director (or VP for the lucky few) and lead a more normal life. And if you do stick it out and make partner life is pretty good. Average pay for a partner in the Big 4 is over $900k.
Actually, for the majority the goal isn’t up and out, the goal is just out. The Big 4 model is based on high turnover–they get recent grads in, work them hard and pay them well, then get them out the door.
Once they’re out they’re probably decision makers at whichever firm they end up at, so they will hire people from their old employer. The model only works if you have high turnover and maintain good relations with your former employees.
Basically, Big 4 employees are future clients, so the higher the turnover is, the larger the client base you have.
Average, from my friends is around $500-600k, more if you can land some big project (like UA bankruptcy). Even for large law firms, $900k is pretty high. $900k is high finance money.
Unfortunately, most of the people working there are 22-30 years old and make between 35-70k working 60-80 hours per week with no chance at becoming a partner. Sad really.
This is the model for law, management consulting and accounting firms. You come in junior, work your ass off, and if you can survive (i.e. have the personality for it), you can make a lot of money.
I was in management consulting in the early 90s. I was hired out of undergrad at $28k. I was making $30k in 6 months. After 12 months I was making $40k, and got a promotion. By the end of 4 years I was a project manager pulling in close to $90k. I regularly billed out over 120% of my requirements.
I left with the birth of my son, after taking one too many phone calls on a Friday of “Algher, I need you to come into the office this weekend.”
Yeah - sounds pretty similar to what I know of private law firms. And while it has always been similar, I believe it has changed somewhat for the worse in recent years.
My BIL recently quit as a senior partner after 30 or so years at E&Y. Hit a certain vesting level and decided the $ wasn’t worth it anymore. Worst to him was the never-ending pressure to sell - even as a long-time partner. I forget whether he took a 40 or 60% paycut for his current job, but he is still quite wealthy and is far happier. (Still doesn’t get to golf with me as much as I’d like, tho!)
Also, back when he started he worked his ass off, but it was understod that that went with the territory. As I recall, it was mainly insane during the busy periods - I believe Feb-May, and to a lesser extent Aug-Oct. It was also understood that after 7 or so years you made partner. And partner back then came with certain luxuries such as the fancy office and country club membership. Now, such progress is no longer ensured, and there are different grades of partnership. At accounting and law firms, you now have a huge underclass of wage slaves who have no hopes of ever making partner.
I worked for a while at a private firm. The money was nice, but on an hourly basis I was doing better with the gov’t. Not to mention I enjoyed having the occasional meal with my family.
It’s possible I was told a high number–the person telling me had a vested interest in making me think partners made a lot. Plus it was for a specialty high-demand tax field, which might have higher averages, but if your numbers are reliable I’ll believe them.
Depends on what you mean by “take advantage of” or “overworked”. I worked for the Big-4 right out of business school in 2001 as a management consultant. Mostly strategy / performance improvement stuff. And I worked at a smaller firm for about 4 years ultimately leaving last year due to…economic uncertainty.
You have to understand the mentality of a lot of Big-4 CPAs and management consultants, lawyers, investment bankers and other “high value professional services” workers. The best way to describe it is a sort of “work hard/play hard” mentality. We don’t think like “shit I have to work 14 hours today”. We think in terms of “this has to get done so we need to do whatever it takes to get the job done.” And then we’ll go out for some drinks or a steak dinner with the client.
Big-4 and other firms are very fraternity like. There is a certain “type” of people they hire and they tend to hire them from certain schools. You generally start together in “classes”. For my new hire orientation, they flew the entire North America start group (several hundred mostly recent college and B-school grads) to Dallas where activities included a Matchbox Twenty concert, your standard speeches by partners and practice leaders, instruction on corporate policy by HR, a lot of drinking, even some dining etiquette lessons.
The starting salary is generally unimpressive. People work in those firms for the experience or ultimately the chance to become partner. Although middle management doesn’t do too bad.
Even if you don’t make partner, having Deloitte or Accenture (technically not Big-4) or KPMG on your resume opens a lot of doors for you. It’s relatively hard to get into management consulting (sort of like I-banking), but once you are in, it’s easy to jump around. A lot of people seem to change jobs every couple of years - start at Deloitte or E&Y, then go to PWC then maybe a smaller firm like BDO or Huron.
Or you can go into industry as a manager or director.
I like it because it’s interesting and challenging and the people tend to be smart. Go look up the thread on “stupid coworkers”. Sure we have boneheads like every company, but you generally don’t have people who are so stupid they request an extra mouse pad because the mouse is at the edge of the pad and they can’t reach an icon. We generally tend to be the type of people who you can put into any situation and we will figure out a solution.
It is easy to get burned out though. Quite often there is no work life balance and partners (or even worse managers) tend to not have respect for your personal life. For the past 4 years, I pretty much always had to have my laptop and Blackberry on me wherever I went so I could respond to an “emergency”. And even though I was laid off last year (due to a practice-wide util rate of about 15%, my experience led me to a management job in a Fortune 500 company for more money in less than 2 months. Apparently they have been trying to fill my position for the better part of a year before hiring me. It’s boring as shit but at least it pays well and is 9-5.
I may go back to a small consultig firm when things pick up or do something else entirely in a year or so. Haven’t decided yet.
Technically “up or out” means that they decide you aren’t going to advance any further in your career and rather than let you hang out as a Sr Associate or Manager for 15 years, you are “counselled out” of the company.
Of course. Every relationship in a free society is based on mutual advantage. My employer is taking advantage of me, and I’m taking advantage of my employer. Long may it continue.
They have the same chance to make partner in 10-15 years as everyone else. Of course it isn’t automatic. A lot of it depends on attitude, performance, and how well the business itself doing. It is a specific career track though. Usually some variation of Analyst->Associate->Sr Associate->Manager->Sr Manager->Partner or Principal (depending on whether you have equity or not). Usually about 1-4 years between each level. It’s not just based on billing hours and doing a good job either. As you rise in the organization, you have to sell work as well.
The author of the blog seems to be disparaging these 24 year old associates as he works his job that he never leaves past 6:30. The question I have for him, or anyone else in your typical office cubicle farm, is where do you realistically see yourself in your company in 5 to 10 years? By what mechanism do you think you will have a chance to command a $150,000, $200,000, or $500,000 salary?
I’ll bet you in 5 years, the blog author will still be in his job but one of those consultants will probably be his boss.
I worked for a mid-size management consulting company (Alvarez & Marsal, for anyone who cares) in the electronic evidence practice of the Dispute Analysis and Forensics (generally forensic accounting) division.
What’s been said is generally true. We were expected to subordinate our lives outside of work to work always, and at a moment’s notice.
I actually caught a lot of flak once because I was called into my MD(managing director)'s office and asked “We need you to be in New Orleans tomorrow morning. Can you do that?” My answer was “No, it’s my wife’s 30th birthday, and I’m taking her out to dinner. I’ve already got reservations and everything.” He was dumbfounded. Then, when I got to New Orleans, they were bitchy because I was a day later than they wanted me.
I used to get calls at 11 on Saturday morning to work on projects that afternoon. I’d get calls at 6:30 at night to work until 9. I’d have to stay to 1 am at the office. Working less than a 9 hour day was pretty rare, unless we were in the occasional lull.
Pay sucked too- because of our particular type of work, we weren’t well suited to hourly billing or bonus structures, so what ended up happening is that we had a crew of about 5-6 out of about 9 people who were associates or senior associates, but were between 30 and 40, and shouldn’t have been lumped in with the 23-30 year olds.
What sucked worst though, was that with the exception of those 5-6 guys I mentioned, everyone else was super-driven, and acted like they didn’t have time to stop and chat about things. I’ve never worked in such a “work work work” type environment. People weren’t as chatty because they were worried about billing enough hours.
I ended up getting laid off/fired a little over a year ago, and promptly found a job at a major healthcare provider in their corporate IT department, and it’s like heaven- generally 8 hour days, very little OT, NO calls on weekends, people who will actually stop and chat for 15 minutes about things like BSG, sports, food, etc… And there’s a casual dress code, 9-80 work schedule, and a few other perks that make it head and shoulders better. On top of that, I’m a high performer there!
SME = Subject Matter Expert The guy/gal on the team who has the real industry/technical/functional expertice. And contrary to what the article suggests, SMEs rarely become partners. You have to generate business to become a partner, and most SMEs (at least in my firm) are the “doers”, not the sellers. But its still not a bad career path.
I know them. My last job was with one of their competetors in the same exact practice area.
Forensics/dispute analysis/litigation consulting/electronic discovery is the consulting service line de jure. Sort of how “ecommerce strategy” was big a decade ago. Most likey you were laid off a year ago for the same reason I was. That this particular industry has peaked and now companies are internalizing these services instead of outsourcing them to 20-somethings for $350 an hour.
Y’know, were they on a careerpath heading toward MDs and were working twice the hours, as young MDs do, I’d disagree more. As they are working hours that aren’t that far from thr Salaried/Non-Exempt hours I usually work, and they are looking for MY screwups, I have less sympathy.
