If I snuck into an airport in the middle of the night and broke the window of a 747 and climbed into the cockpit, could I start it and take off?
What about a tank parked in an army base?
What about an oil tanker or cruise ship? A naval vessel of some sort?
For military vehicles I can see on the one hand the need for increased security. On the other hand, building your entire system so that it has one additional deliberately-introduced failure point seems like a bad idea…
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
If I snuck into an airport in the middle of the night and broke the window of a 747 and climbed into the cockpit, could I start it and take off?
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Are you talking about the classic series or the 400 series? If classic you may be shorthanded to perform the procedures without the helping hand of a flight engineer
No, there are no ignition keys for airliners, but there are other safeguards in place. Starting, taxiing, and taking off a heavy airliner is a relatively complex and time consuming process. For one thing, you need to activate and bring online various systems such as the aircraft’s auxilliary power unit in order to provide the electricity and bleed air needed to run the other systems, such as the engine’s pneumatic starters. Unless the aircraft is parked at the opposite end of the field away from public view you are sure to attract attention (and make lots of noise). If the aircraft is parked at a jetway, how are you going to back it out of its parking space in order to taxi to a suitable runway? although equipped with reverse thrusters a 747 generally is not driven in reverse the way a car is but requires a separate piece of equipment known as an airport tug to push it back away from its spot. What about fuel? How would you know that the aircraft you want to take a joyride in has enough fuel to support your flight?
Windows on a 747 are fairly high off the ground. You’d need an air stairs vehicle or something with a suitably high bucket or ladder to reach them. They’re also too small for you to climb through unless you break the window into one of the doors. Then you’re stuck with the problem of a vehicle or ladder or bucket pressed up aginst the fuselage. How will you get rid of it so you don’t scrape the paint job as you move the aircraft?
Other dopers correct me if I’m wrong but I also believe there are lockout pins on the landing gear to prevent retraction which must be removed during flight otherwise you won’t be able to retract the gear, thus increasing your air resistance which will have the effect of greatly limiting your speed (and range). And if you break a window to get in, you won’t be able to pressurize the cabin, so you’ll have to fly wearing an exygen mask (and very warm clothing) to survive the -50 degree temperatures normally encountered at typical 35,000 cruising altitudes, unless you intend a short hop and stay below 10,000 feet?
Finally, the airport has other means at its disposal to stop you. To take off you need sufficient runway length to build up the necessary speed. Althogh you’d have one of the largest pieces of equipment at your disposal, there’s still the possibility that they could use other pieces of equipment such a heavy trucks and support vehicles to block the taxiways or runways. You could run over them and shove them aside, but you risk damaging the aircraft beyond repair which would then make flight either impossible or incredibly dangerous to you and those on the ground.
In short, unless you knew exactly what you were doing, had planned out logistics ahead of time and had friends in high places to keep interference away, probably not.
Most likely not. Larger equipment has propulsion, power distrubition, and other support systems which are distributed through various parts of the ship in such a way that it is impossible for one person to operate them from a central location. Don’t be deceived by the computerized controls and relatively simple controls used to steer and throttle the engines from the bridge. You’d still be handicapped when it comes to performing basic tasks such as unlatching the ship from its moorings or lifting the anchor. Time consuming, requiring additional manpower, guarranteed to attract attention. All this assuming that the engines are already running and awaiting your command. It would not be as simple as turning the rudder away from your port and applying power with thrust levers.
It is my understanding that ammunition is kept in a separate location from the tanks at the motor pool, as was discovered during that famous tank rampaging incident in San Diego
It depends. Most of my experience admittedly comes from heavy equipment, but some have keys, and some don’t. Of those that don’t (and even some that do), there’s a master switch that must be turned first. It’s often located in an obscure place (i.e. under the seat).
The military vehicles that I have used do not require keys to start them. There is an ignition switch. The steering wheel is usually chained and locked. This would include HMMWV and trucks such as LMTV’s and FMTV’s. That is, if the vehicle has wheels and runs on diesel, it doesn’t need keys to start, but dies require keys to turn the steering wheel.
SSG Schwartz
I may be mixing up an SD column with what I already know here (or some other column, I dunno) but small planes do have ignition keys. They sit around unattended for long periods, and while a non-pilot would probably not be able to take the thing off and actually steal it, such a person could certainly cause expensive damage.
For a 747, I agree with ntcrawler. It has no ignition key, but good luck to you in your attempts to work out how to start it. If you can get into the plane unnoticed, start it, taxi to a runway and take off, you’d presumably have serious resources at your disposal. A keyed ignition switch probably wouldn’t be too much of a challenge.
Our Dash 8 aircraft have no ignition key (and other large aircraft wouldn’t either.) Its doors are locked though so you wouldn’t be able to get in to start with. If you did get in then you’d be able to get the APU started by following the checklist, it might take you a while to find the buttons though. Unfortunately there is no checklist that spells out the engine starting procedure so you’d be on your own there.
There are plenty of aircraft add-ons for MS flight sim that are accurate enough to teach you how to start a large aircraft.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
There are plenty of aircraft add-ons for MS flight sim that are accurate enough to teach you how to start a large aircraft.
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But what they lack to portray are the extermal support necessary to carry out such an operation. Mundane things such as actually getting onboard become a challenge when you’re doing the whole thing solo. How are you gonna retract the jetway if you need to be onboard the jetway in order to drive it away from the aircraft? How are you gonna push it back without being inside the tug to drive it (and then need to find a way to get back onboard)
Your best bet would be to go to a bone yard such as the ones in the Mojave dessert and come across a 747 that’s either just been landed for storage, or just brought out of storage and prepped for a delivery flight to be returned to service. That way you would come across an aircraft that’s parked in a relatively sparcely populated area away from personnel and passengers that would spot you. The aircraft would be out in a relatively open field so you wouldn’t need to worry about retracting jetways or pushing it back. Being in flight-worthy status the aircraft wouldn’t have all the windows covered in butcher tape and would also have hydraulic systems that were charged with fluid (instead of being drained), as well as having some appreciable fuel load inside the tanks and batteries that were charged (so that you could start the APU in order to start the engines). Without charged batteries you would need to use external power from a ground start cart in order to power everything up. And not just any Home Depot generator would do, most aircraft operate on 120 VAC at 400 Hz (and not household 50/60 Hz).
It could be done (law enforcement and the military being after you aside) if under the right circumstances, but those circumstances would have to be fairly specific and unlikely to be encountered in real life.
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
What about an oil tanker or cruise ship? A naval vessel of some sort?
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Just a data point, with regards to naval vessels, especially ones with steam plants (the only real kind 
)…
I remember counting the guys needed in one of our enginerooms to keep the plant running and answer the bells: Between the watch officer, throttleman, main engine watch, and other fixed watchstations as well as a few roving watchstanders (e.g. Engineering Officer of the Watch), there were 13 guys in there keeping the lights on and the shaft turning.
I can only imagine that there is an equivalent number of folks on the bridge and handling the lines and other such things.
Besides, some naval vessels bring along a detachment of well armed marines just for such circumstances.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
I may be mixing up an SD column with what I already know here (or some other column, I dunno) but small planes do have ignition keys. They sit around unattended for long periods, and while a non-pilot would probably not be able to take the thing off and actually steal it, such a person could certainly cause expensive damage.
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My experience is limited to 2- and 4-seater planes from a variety of manufacturers. These all have ignition keys. The ones I’ve seen are different from car keys in one respect - they are flat on one edge and can only be inserted in one orientation. I don’t know what size of aircraft marks the transition from key to no key.
I met a man who had just bought the very first Eclipse 500 (a small twin-engine jet). He specifically commented on how unprepossessing the keys were - they were small round-ended keys like you would use for a U-lock. Not great if you’re trying to impress potential dates by showing them your jet keys! But I can’t remember if these were for the doors or the ignition.
[QUOTE=SSG Schwartz]
The military vehicles that I have used do not require keys to start them. There is an ignition switch. The steering wheel is usually chained and locked. This would include HMMWV and trucks such as LMTV’s and FMTV’s. That is, if the vehicle has wheels and runs on diesel, it doesn’t need keys to start, but dies require keys to turn the steering wheel.
SSG Schwartz
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This also applies to tanks and APCs, except it is usually the hatch that is chained shut, rather than the steering yolk.
Tangentially ntcrawler; It wouldn’t matter if ammunition was stored inside the tank unless you have at least two people. The driver of a tank is totally isolated from the turret, which, of course, contains the guns.
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead]
For a 747, I agree with ntcrawler. It has no ignition key, but good luck to you in your attempts to work out how to start it. If you can get into the plane unnoticed, start it, taxi to a runway and take off, you’d presumably have serious resources at your disposal. A keyed ignition switch probably wouldn’t be too much of a challenge.
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What if you do know what you’re doing though? It’s not like there’s a real shortage of people in the world who know how to fly a 747. Maybe a pilot goes rouge and steals one from Ethiopia or something. I just figured a 747 would have more built in security than my sister’s Vespa.
[QUOTE=AmunRa]
Tangentially ntcrawler; It wouldn’t matter if ammunition was stored inside the tank unless you have at least two people. The driver of a tank is totally isolated from the turret, which, of course, contains the guns.
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What do you mean by totally isolated? The driver can’t crawl into the turret from inside?
[QUOTE=T_SQUARE]
What if you do know what you’re doing though? It’s not like there’s a real shortage of people in the world who know how to fly a 747. Maybe a pilot goes rouge and steals one from Ethiopia or something. I just figured a 747 would have more built in security than my sister’s Vespa.
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Well, then we’re back to what ntcrawler said. If you were able to do all the things mentioned (circumvent security, get a pushback, taxi and take off etc.) then hotwiring would present a minor obstacle, presumably.
[QUOTE=T_SQUARE]
What if you do know what you’re doing though? It’s not like there’s a real shortage of people in the world who know how to fly a 747. Maybe a pilot goes rouge and steals one from Ethiopia or something. I just figured a 747 would have more built in security than my sister’s Vespa.
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Your sister’s Vespa isn’t parked inside a secure airport. I guess we’ve always relied on the idea that people with the knowledge and means to steal a B747 are highly unlikely to want to do so.
As far as push back goes, I’m pretty sure you could just use reverse thrust to get out. It won’t do the airbridge (jetway) any favours and it’ll blow all kinds of crap into the terminal, but you’re not going to care about that. Also, not all aircraft are parked at an airbridge, you’d be more likely to try and steal one that’s parked away from the terminal area, perhaps at a maintenance hanger. You’d need to get hold of some stairs but you should find something suitable in the hanger. There is no doubt though that your chances of success would be greatly increased by having a partner in crime.
Aircraft generally stop having ignition keys as soon as you get to two piston engines or a single turbine.
Only small Cesna-style planes have them and they are about as sophisticated as the typical car ignition key of the middle 1960s, when lightplane design pretty well froze.
Door keys extend up into the piston twins, and some small turboprops.
Bizjets usually have some locking provision, though more for “security” than anti-theft. We wouldn’t want the important people to be exposed to the risk of a stowaway nutcase or a bomb planted on board, now would we?
Airliners, even small 19 passenger ones, have no built-in locking provisions. There may be a kit to lock one door, but that’s essentially a sophisticated version of the Army’s “chain the hatch shut” technique.
For folks who know what they’re doing, stealing an airliner parked on a ramp away from a terminal, or one of the types which can back away from the building on its own power would not be hard. Back when I was flying full time I bet I could get a Boeing moving under it’s own power in about 5 minutes from first touching the airplane & could be airborne within a couple more if it was parked near the end of a usable takeoff surface.
Two people would make it a lot easier, though only a little faster. As would one of the smaller types with built-in stairs. But I have used an extension ladder to climb aboard an aircraft we were ferrying, as well as clambering up on the cab of a pickup & chest-pressing into the cabin from there. Neither dignified nor graceful, but not hard either.
One nice thing about stealing jets; they look exactly the same when shut down as when ready to move. So if you could get aboard & get the door closed undetected, you could get ready almost at your leisure as long as you weren’t near suspicious folks who could hear the startup.
Missed edit window …
ETA: 1920’s post wasn’t there when I started.
Actually a friend of mine sorta-stole a 707. His employer (3rd world charter operator) was a real scumbag who hadn’t paid the crew for two consecutive paychecks & had just announced he was going to skip the third. So my friend gathered the other 2 pilots & the F/As & the jet & off they went to a different destination in a suitable country, where they immobilized the airplane by borrowing a few key black boxes.
They held the airplane for ransom & after some interesting negotiations from various 3rd-world payphones got their money delivered as a box of US cash to a nearby post office general delivery. The crew split up the money & made their separate ways back to the US. Presumably the scumbag found some other fools to work for him recovering the airplane.
I personaly have only brushed the barest surface of the seamy underside of commercial aviation, but there is a depth of evil there which would amaze folks used to the fairly clean-hands world of 1st world major airlines.
Railroad locomotives don’t have ignition keys, but you can usually remove one or more of the control handles to prevent unauthorised operation. You can hide them, lock them in a box on the loco or secure them elsewhere. The handles are generic to the make of loco though, so you could bring your own. Most locos, you can lock up the cab, but possibly not the engine compartment. Any locks would be standard pattern keys, either to the operating company or perhaps industry wide. Something as large and well travelled as a locomotive, you need a lot of different people to have access. The security is in fact that you can’t really get far on one without permission, and the knowledge required to do so is fairly limited.
Other sorts of trains, like multiple unit passenger trains, usually have some kind of common key or removable handle system. This is as much to lock vacant controls in a given position as it is to prevent unauthorised use. Then there will usually be door locks with an operator issued common key. Some of the newer trains have swipe cards or numeric keypad systems. Once again, a train is specialised equipment, too heavy to easily steal, and on rails. You can’t drive a subway train home your place on the sly, respray it, and sell it in the classifieds.
Do reactor safety keys on a nuclear submarine count? Not exactly an “ignition key” but something useful to have if you plan on getting very far into the start-up procedure.
[QUOTE=1920s Style “Death Ray”]
As far as push back goes, I’m pretty sure you could just use reverse thrust to get out. It won’t do the airbridge (jetway) any favours and it’ll blow all kinds of crap into the terminal, but you’re not going to care about that.
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There’s another pretty important reason not to use reverse thrust to back up. You stand a very good chance of blowing crap up and getting it sucked into engine intake. That’ll end your joy ride real quick.
I can tell you that business jets do not have keys. But, starting them is quite similar to commercial jets as ntcrawler described.
Depends on the airplane. We used to back DC9s, 727s, & MD80s out of the gate using reverse thrust on a regular basis. Completely ops normal with passengers aboard.
Conversely, a 737 would be very likely to suck up some junk and I don’t know of any carrier (or Boeing) who authorizes “power backs” with 737s.
Tail-mounted engines seem to be the wave of the past with airliners, so I doubt we’re gonna see powerbacks making a comeback any time soon.