Just following on from the last post, a quick Google search of “cab night heaters” shows that all the different brands I see are 12v, electrical powered heaters. I don’t link the search, the results in your country may be different, but I am confident that your own Google search will bring up the same type of products.
There do seem to be gas powered night heaters in development, but for the story as I told it, I know that the fleet all had the same electrical type of heater. How do I know? Because I worked in the service department for the company responsible for the provision and maintenance of all the trucks in that fleet. Retrofitting the wiring for the night heater was one of the jobs required on the PDI for new vehicles for that fleet.
From what I’ve seen (and I admit I’m not a truck driver), I have seen trucks idling at rest areas or truck stops at night…though, I suspect that this may be more of a winter thing (I’ve heard that they do this because restarting a diesel engine in cold weather is difficult). My apologies if I’m incorrect on this.
When it’s obvious that no hard evidence is forthcoming, asking for it is simply a rhetorical question designed to point out that the evidence which has been provided thus far is not at all on par with the truth claim that is being made.
Given the logistical difficulties that have been pointed out with regard to using remotely administered anaesthetic gas to facilitate a burglary, the hypothesis that burglars have ever done so is highly improbable. This is not the same as impossible, but if such an improbable hypothesis is to be reasonably believed, it’s going to require some really amazing, bulletproof evidence. Second- and third-hand accounts from people not knowledgeable in anesthesiology (this includes police speculation, reports of same provided by journalists, and testimony in court cases by people other than experts in anaesthesiology) are neither amazing nor bulletproof.
Speaking of amazing, the Amazing Randi actually claimed this happened to him. When he was doing webcasts in 2001, he recounted an incident when travelling in a train sleeper car into Italy. He had a strange dream, and when he woke up the next morning, his wallet and other valuables were stolen. It turned out this happened to everyone in the car.
Apparently a gang gets on a car and threatens to kill the porter to get him to cooperate. They pipe some gas (ether or chloroform) into each sleeper suite and then perform the robbery. Randi’s odd dream was actually him waking up during the robbery but still being under the influence of the gas.
How many people have died on trains from being asphyxiated by ether or chloroform over the years? None?
It is very possible for thieves to brazenly enter a sleeping passenger’s compartment and steal stuff and walk out. No anaesthesia needed, just tired passengers. Yes, can easily happen that you fell asleep, slept uneasily, and woke up feeling terrible and found your valuables missing. You weren’t gassed, you were just robbed while you slept.
I would find it much easier to believe the steward slipped everybody in the car a mickey rather than gas. Way freaking easier to deal with than possibly killing passengers with gas.
Both ether and chloroform stink to high heaven for days. If this technique was actually used, the railway would have to take the cars off the tracks for at least a 3 days before anybody would set foot in them. Those chemicals reek.
Ether is both highly explosive at high concentrations and notoriously ineffective at low doses. You’d need to carry gallons of the stuff for a single car, and then run a very high risk of blowing the car up.
Chloroform causes liver damage even when applied on a pad. To someone sleeping in a room full of the stuff, it’s almost 100% certain to cause liver damage. Yet astoundingly nobody ever gets a medical report showing liver damage.
This 1909 NY Times article cites police reports that a gang of robbers committed over 60 burglaries in which they filled the houses with gas (from the natural gas lamps and heaters!) in order to “quiet” the sleeping victims. Talk about a likelihood of killing the occupants or blowing up the entire block, but it appears they didn’t mind those obstacles to their plan. They were allegedly captured by police while in the midst of the commission of such a burglary (at a detective’s apartment). I can’t vouch for the authenticity of this, or any of the other claims of this sort however if someone made the assertion “burglars use crow bars to pry open locked doors” I wouldn’t really have much evidence besides police reports and news stories to determine it’s veracity.
I would say there are certainly many legendary cases of this that are unfounded but that it has and does occur, in some contexts, in some crimes. For example the one case of the family sleeping in their vacation villa reeks of an insurance fraud scheme to me, taking advantage of recent reports of that type of crime in the area, founded or unfounded. But the report of the robbery gang in NYC in 1909 using natural gas in apartment buildings to knock out the occupants, at great peril to everyone, seems sadly plausible to me.
During the Moscow theater crisis authorities pumped an unknown ‘sleeping gas’ into the ventilation system of an entire auditorium full of hostages and rebels. Of the over 100 hostages that died all but a few died of the gas used to subdue the rebels. (all of the rebels were shot whether they were conscious or not so nobody knows but presumably many of them died of the gas too). This wasn’t to commit a burglary but it supports, on the one hand, that the assumptions being made here that such a practice could have highly lethal results are accurate. On the other hand, it shows sometimes people don’t care if that’s the case or not. Maybe more so bandits than governments.
The arguments that it would be impractical, dangerous, ineffective, or just outright stupid, does not prove that it doesn’t occur any more so than unsupported claims, police statements, and news stories prove absolutely that it does. Prisons are full of people who did some incredibly stupid, impractical, dangerous things in ill-conceived crimes.
In an enclosed space like a train compartment, where one yell from a waking victim could summon the entire train car, and the relative lack of ventilation, I could easily believe some of the reports of train robbers in Europe doing this. At least at some times, that someone somewhere along the line, has tried it and then legends of it happening more frequently than it really does grew from there.
I posted in the other thread on this subject, thinking I was posting here, that you wouldn’t really need a mysterious knockout gas when all these people are already asleep. You’d want a sedative to hopefully keep them asleep. Whether criminals have found a good one and employ it is questionable, but there are many liquid sedatives that could be misted or aerosolized and sprayed in a sleeping person’s direction. Many over the counter first generation antihistamines have powerful sedative effects that might seem like a good idea to a criminal.
That doesn’t mean they are using them, but many words have been written on how there is no mysterious knockout gas when you really don’t need to knock out someone who is already unconscious.
Chloroform causes liver damage after chronic exposure, and I don’t think that qualifies as chronic. Besides, liver damage wouldn’t show the next day. I’ve never seen a medical report in my life, let alone one that showed liver damage that was connected to a single incident in the past.
I do not claim that it hasn’t happened, but to the OP’s question “has it ever happened?” the only reasonable answer is “there hasn’t yet been a reliably reported instance of it.”
Well, I cited the 1909 report of robbers gassing over 60 homes according to police was that not reliably reported?
Here is a case of a famous footballer’s family who were allegedly gassed and robbed on vacation in the French Riviera in 2006. I don’t know how else we can define reliably reported but it was reported, investigated, determined to be the case, and as far as I can tell arrests were made and charges were filed. How is that less reliable than a report of, say, burglars who used a ladder to break into a garage window? We don’t know for sure, 100%, that they used a ladder, it’s just the victims, police, and newspapers who are saying so.
It’s less reliable because we all know of ladders that can reach a window, how such ladders are constructed, where they can be bought, etc. But nobody has been able to cite such info about this mystery gas – in fact, most of the people are giving expert cites that no such gas is known to exist.
We all know of airplane crashes; they are reliably well documented. But that is not reliable evidence that a UFO crashed in Area 51.
P.S. “ladder to a garage window?” My garage windows are easily reachable without any ladder. Do you have 2-story garages? How do you get your car into the upper story?
…So Wile E. Coyote rolls out this huge canister of Acme Sleeping Gas, and uses one of those old-fashioned bellows to pump gas into the cave the Road Runner is in. RR sees the gas wafting towards him, smirks, and gives a tiny puff. Outside the cave, the entire cloud shoots out, engulfing WEC, who turns every color of the rainbow and collapses in a crumpled heap…
Seriously, if anyone tried using gas in a break-in, they’d probably get a Darwin award, or at least a mention on a Dumbest Criminals site. “Smith and Jones not only gassed themselves into unconsciousness, they awoke to find themselves looking down the barrel of the irate homeowner’s gun.”
While I agree with most of your post, this is a bit of a stretch, not waking up when someone’s rumaging around in you room is not the same as not waking up when someone’s cutting your sternum in two with a saw.
That story has already been discussed in this thread. One point that was brought up is that the aircon system would be a really bad conduit for pumping gas into a house, given how aircon works. Also, the police in the Scotsman article are not quoted as saying that gas was found - it was a claim by the journalist.
In the “story”, the window of Bob’s truck was broken by the other two drivers, so he would need a police report to give to the insurance company.
Universal healthcare for EU citizens, which Bob, as American, isn’t. Moreover, while not every doctor automatically hands over a copy of their report to the patient (figuring that the average guy isn’t interested), this was a police investigation. The police would be interested whether Bob was gassed and traces found or not.
In addition, patients have the right to their information. Once a patient asks to see their data, hospitals and doctors MUST give them access and allow copies.
So for all your talk about “vouching” for people being truthful, you have ZERO interest in providing hard facts. It’s firmly in the FOAF category now.
That’s not how you recounted the story. Or is the story that the police talked to the other truckers, but not to Bob personally?? Really? Bob had no interest in talking to the police, just what two truckers told him?
I did point out that people for whom English is a foreign language can make mistakes when talking with someone else. Whether Bob spoke English with French people, or tried French with them, there was a language barrier than can explain a lot of misunderstanding.
So did Bob pay for the broken window in your story out of his pocket, instead of reporting it to the insurance company?
So Bob paid the stay in the French hospital out of pocket, too?
You earlier made the repeated claim that it was not “an anecdote” or FOAF story but a real true experience that could be checked. You wanted to vouch for the people who told the story, yet you deny any inconsistencies and gaping holes in logic. Typical UL.
He might have just needed a crime reference number. That’s what I’ve needed when claiming on insurance. But anyway, it is a bit much to expect him to still have it after all this time or hunt it out for the satisfaction of sceptics on a website his kids’ friend is on.
Is it different in France? In the UK, non-EU citizens get free emergency healthcare. The hospital is supposed to bill their insurer.
Well, if Bob doesn’t want to hunt down any proof, then I feel free to disregard this tale as another UL instead of - as it was originally told by the poster - as “true story, honestly, totally trustworthy, I vouch for it” story with proof for a dubious occurrence.
I don’t know how the actual procedure is for non-EU citizens re: bills. Nevertheless, the fact is that, if there were proof instead of a bullshit UL, the patient = Bob could get his patient document and data either from the hospital itself or from his insurer, if it was passed on directly. The data is there, so instead of “he doesn’t remember, it sounded like …oxide” Bob could say “Aha, here is the lab report of my blood, showing latinusoxide in my blood in concentration of X mg/l” and the medical dopers would say “why of course, that’s the decomposition product of ether/whatever, that is true proof that he breathed something that’s not part of normal truck exhausts (like carbon monoxide or similar).”