It takes no faith at all.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley
Jodi, my god-given sense of right and wrong tells me that it is wrong to buy slaves from neighboring countries or to enslave foreigners, keep them in bondage for life, enslave their children, and beat them within an inch of their lives. However, the book that god wrote tells me that these things are ok. Why would god implant a sense of right and wrong in me that directly contradicts the book he wrote to tell me right from wrong? It doesn’t make sense.
Now, JThunder, I assume this newly worded question will pass muster with you, since I took it straight from the bible. Care to take a crack at actually answering the question now, or are you going to try to distract the discussion with ridiculous non-sequitors some more?[/QUOTE]
I’d like to take a whack at it if you don’t mind.
First, you’re right. That link was just plain stupid. A lame and extremely feeble load of BS.
IMHO one of the worst, saddest, and most irritating Christian ideas is that people who do not believe as they so can’t really be good or do kind and loving things. When non Christians do wonderful things before their very ideas they seem compelled to rationalize it away because of their dogma. If people haven’t invited Jesus into their hearts then whatever kindness or love they exhibit must not come from God and because all real love comes from God then it must not be love. It’s a tragic ridiculous, and infuriating piece of twisted logic.
The real evidence of love and kindness by non believers should help define our understanding of God {if we believe}
to me there’s no way to read the verses you quoted as well as many others in the Bible and still reasonably conclude that it is indeed the inerrant word of God. It just isn’t period. We can still consider the Bible a contribution to our spiritual life without believing it is the word of God. If someone claims to worship the truth then it seems they ought to have some commitment to actually look for it.
As a belief can we consider that all love springs from God even if the people who express that love don’t believe or acknowledge it’s source? If all love, even the love expressed by atheists as well as believers, comes from God then what does that say about the nature of God and our connection to God and each other?
kunilou , Shodan ,Jodi ,Sarahfeena , please come back to this thread and help find some resolution to the original topic.
The Christians on this board are educated, enlightened; well-informed. They are the exceptional representatives; but they are not the norm. Not every Christian has the inclination to open their mind and expand thier world to include other ideas, and other people. And not every Christian bothers to live a responsible life when they don’t fully understand the world around them.
(I sent an email to Tubadiva to ask her to remove the duplicate post from the Pit; I meant to post to this thread)
I wanted to introduce this issue not to continue the argument; but to clarify why and how I feel that religion can contribute to breakdowns in society. The literal/ non-literal discussion has been ugly, but the detractors here have a valid precedent for discounting religious belief: “Religion is the opium of the people” (Karl Marx)
I am in close daily contact with many, many Christians who refuse to solve problems of their own volition. They expect God to heal illness and refuse medical care. They state flatly: “God will help me through this, it is in His hands.” Christians often blame Satan when their child is truant or irresponsible. I take parents to court for neglect because they will not seek help for their teenager with substance abuse issues; but they will assure me that they are praying. I watch criminals excuse their unlawful behavior with “It is part of God’s plan, or I would not have done it.” Kids are prevented from learning basic evolution then suffer both a moral dilemma and ignorance when it is time to study microbiology in college.
Oh, and I want to include my favorite Christian absolute: “This world is temporary; I need to worry about eternity, not whether or not little Charlie is going to finish 11th grade.” Or whether little Charlie can read. Or whether little Charlie will suffer infertility from his untreated STD.
A belief in an afterlife and a revolving door of forgiveness removes responsibility from the individual.
God has become a scapegoat for the lazy and unmotivated Southerner. I, too, would prefer it if people would think for themselves. Blind faith can be infuriating. Instead of acting to resolve and issue, some Christians use methods like praying or minimizing the issue by comparison to the afterlife.
Why do some Christians replace morals and responsibilty to society with a shrug and a prayer?
I don’t think anyone ever said you had to be a Christian, let alone the son of God, to be accomplished or worthy of admiration. Nor would being accomplished or noteworthy have any bearing on morality. You could be a fantastic scientist and be completely amoral. I think you set up a strawman here so you could knock him down.
I know it would pain you greatly to find common ground with a Christian. You had to try pretty doggone hard to find purchase for your anti-Chrstian sentiment in my post… 
Faith is the belief in things unseen. I believe you are a collection of cells and chemical processes. You are a carbon based life form primarily fueled by Cheetos and Mountain Dew. These things can be proven. Well, it could be Doritos and Dr. Pepper, but you get the drift.
I also believe that you are a beautiful, loved, child of God. I believe that within you is a soul that God wants to be in realtionship with. I can’t prove it. But you can’t prove me wrong.
You are living your life based on a set of beliefs. So am I. I am assuming you believe there is no God and when you die, you will just turn off, blinking out into nothingness. You are choosing to believe that God does not exist. You may be the most knowledgeable and articulate holder of this view on the planet, but try as you may, you cannot dis-prove God. So you live by faith that He does not exist and that you are not displeasing Him.
You and I are both living our lives based on principles that cannot be proven this side of the grave. We both have faith. And being that I sometimes doubt my God and my relationship with Him, your faith is arguably stronger than mine.
But now we are wandering far afield from the OP. I suggest you start a new GD thread. “I have no faith”. And submit that atheists are without faith. We could continue the debate there.
What you are describing is stupid, irresponsible people. Christianity does not have a monopoly on them. If you care to share with us about this family who doesn’t care if their kids get educated or get adequate medical attention, we can talk about them. Otherwise, you are setting up another straw man.
And just because Marx said something and it is oft quoted, does not make it true. Religion can be an opiate if it sets aside the need to work for good in the here and now. My faith, and my relationship with Jesus, calls me to work for social justice, serve the poor in my community and in El Salvador and Costa Rica, act politcally to stop war and torture, and hold my country responsible to not leave the most vulnerable of our society behind. And I am not alone. Check out www.sojo.net if you did not already earlier in the thread. My faith calls me not to a drug induced stupor, but into action.
Not really; it’s such a standard religious argument, after all. It just leapt out at me; “What ? Again ?!”
First, as I keep saying it’s not my logical obligation to do so. It’s the logical obligation of those who claim something exists to prove it, not those who deny it. Second, it’s quite likely I can prove it, if you are speaking of the standard “3-Os” God; the one that’s omnipotent/scient/benevolent. If God was omnipotent and omniscient, or even pretty powerful and perceptive, he’d do something to make the world a better place. I have more evidence for the benevolence of the US government than that of God, which is pretty sad considering my opinion of the government. As many others have said over the years, the state of the world contradicts the idea of the 3-O’s God.
That doesn’t mean that most Christians do, or that it’s a net benefit to the world.
Doing it for the reward is neither ‘good’ nor ‘moral’. It’s selfish.
You’re weaselling. You said: "My original comment was in reference to poster such as Der Trihs. If **anyone here can find facts and logic in his arguments ** against religion, then I would love to have them pointed out, because I sure don’t see it.[My emphasis] " You then gave a post by js_africanus as “another example”.
When I pointed out that his post did contain logic, suddenly you’re telling me you never said js-africanus doesn’t use logic.
the raindog, the latter part of your post #256 seems to me to be quite confused. You talk at length in support of your position that certain viewpoints are shouted down and unpopular here despite their validity. Yet when I say
you say
I think you need to think about this some more.
Bad choice of words on my part. What I mean by “real life” is “in person”. In other words, there are significant differences between debating on a message board and debating in person.
Which part?
OK here we fundamentaly disagree. I don’t have to prove anything to you. You don’t have to prove anything to me. We both have differing views on the existance of God, and what happens to us after physical death. And neither of us has a shred of “evidence” to back up what we belive happens to us beyond the grave.
Again we disagree on the basics. Big surprise huh? If this is your “proof” of the non-existance of God (and I know you cannot prove a negative, which is why I say you DO have faith in something), it is pretty weak. I say God is doing something. And I also believe that there is much more to life than this mortal coil, and that the real “existance” is beyond the physical. I am not trying to convince you. That is not my job. And I respect your right to disagree. In real life, we would possibly even like each other and get along.
As far as God being omnipotent, once I figure out how to get my task bar on my computer the way I want it, I will get to figuring out how God understands the universe. Until then, there are just some things I have to take on faith.
Strawman? No. I was not presenting an argument when I noted a few of the winners of the Nobel Peace Prize. A few of the Christians here had stated that the basis of moral code comes directly from the Christian God. I was merely giving examples of humans other than Jesus Christ who are role models for good behavior. There have been 93 well known examples in recent history.
Please elaborate. I find this statement utterly ridiculous.
Promoting peace is absolutely moral action.
newcrasher, do you consider not believing in fairies or ogres to require a lot of faith? How about not believing in Santa Claus? How about not believing in psi powers? I am not trying to insult your religion, but to say that atheism requires a lot of faith indicates a total lack of understanding of many atheists. I can’t speak for all atheists, but I can say that this particular atheist doesn’t not believe in God because of a decision not to, but rather because the evidence doesn’t support it and I lack the faith to believe despite the lack of evidence. That’s not taking a lot of faith.
We are not all “people of faith,” and as a matter of fact, some of us who like to think we base our beliefs on facts find that somewhat insulting. If you come away from this thread with anything, come away with that concept - that it does not require faith to not believe in God, any more than it requires faith to not believe in Zeus or Thor.
Well I guess we agree. There are many examples of moral people who were not Jesus. Can we change the name of this forum to “Great Agreements”? 
Again, as the examples on the NPP list (with the possible exception of a few people involved in the Middle East “peace” process) are people who have struggled for peace, I would call their actions moral, regardless of religiosity.
Reading the list only reinformces where we agree. Religiosity, and Christianity in particular, are not indicator of the morality of a person.
This is far from one family; it is the prevaling theme for the work I do. Finding a way to stress to these families that prayer will not solve problems without offending (note how you took offense) is a daily task.
There is a serious loophole in the Christian moral code. There are Christians who refuse to address problems or illness on the pretense of waiting the more important afterlife. Christians have been taught that prayer solves problems and will not take the initiative to act.
My point- or strawman as you like to call it: is that if the Bible is the sole source of moral code, then how to fill in the gaps? My job would be easier if morality was taught by modern, tangible humans instead of a cryptic text.
The tone that you are taking with me implies that I am one of those detractors of the Christian faith. I have no issue or interest in debating the literal or inspirational application of the Bible. My point (and I have stuck to it throughout this discussion) is that morality requires action; and that magical thinking does nothing to advance humankind.
To elaborate further: Christians seem to feel that atheists are amoral. I contend that Christians who rely on an ancient text to solve today’s problems are suffering from a moral deficiency.
My hope is that both sides will come to some understanding of the others’ motivations and intent.
Years ago I went with a friend to A Pentecostal service and afterwards we were chatting as a group at one members house. A lady said her son was having real problems in school and she prayed to Jesus and the problems were solved. I asked her if she had ever talked to her son to find out what was bothering him. She said “No, that wouldn’t be having faith in Jesus”
“Why should God solve your problems if you can’t make an effort on your sons behalf?” I asked. {crickets}
I agree that’s a big problem. Lots of Christians don’t feel that way though. There’s an old saying that when we do *all * that we can using what God has given us then God will do what he can.
That translates into “effort is required”
Thinking that God gave us the Bible as a guide to live by is just superstitious tradition IMO. I haven’t found anything within Christian tradition to indicate that was God’s plan. There’s nothing in “scripture” ti indicate it was ever God’s plan that we have one final authoritative compilation of holy writings. Yet still that tradition lingers. I think in future generations it will deteriorate as the facts about the source of the scriptures becomes more widely known. I haven’t figured out why smart people who have the evidence available to them refuse to seriously consider it. I can only think that their place within the group and the security it provides is more important to them than actually seeking the truth. Sometimes the truth can ask something of us that is not easy to deal with.
For myself, if I say I believe that God is the well from which all love is drawn, that means when I see any person expressing love be they atheist or anything else , then I am seeing the presence of God in them, and I should be grateful and celebrate that. It doesn’t matter what label we put on it.
Yes, I do. First, as I have repeatedly said, the logical onus is on those who claim something exists/happened to provide evidence for it; Occam’s Razor again. Second, the universe simply doesn’t look constructed, and neither do we. I will say that if there is a God he did a rather poor job.
Well, I certainly don’t live in a homogenous area! I realize that she will be exposed to a lot, and we live where we live specifically because I want that to be the case. One of the most difficult things about raising children is that there will be other influences, and much more scary ones than learning about another religion! 
So, yes, I expect her to ask questions, and I will not be ready to jump off a bridge if she chooses another path. More than anything, I probably hope that she finds a way to know God that works for her. It will be very satisfying for us as a family if we all have the same beliefs, but of course this isn’t always how it works.
Well, actually, evidence only needs to be provided if someone trying to convince you that God exists. Otherwise, there is no onus on anyone to provide anything.
You mean you have evidence that their is no God and nothing after death? Can you share it? Link to it? Can your atheist peers review and test it? Can I mesure it?
No Christian here (at least that I saw) said they had proof of God, just that they had faith in him.