Hardly. I’ve been quite clear on this point.
Should every Wehrmacht soldier have been put on trial at Nuremburg? If no, why not, if there’s no distinction to be made between soldiers fighting in good accord with the rules of war, and their civilian leadership?
Putting them on trial and executing them is a far cry from honoring them. In fact, they are pretty much complete opposites. I’m comfortable with finding a middle ground.
I still see no good reason to honor The Confederacy. Which is what Memorial Day is all about. Actually, it desecrates the honor from the soldiers who are actually worthy.
Nice dodge. Is there a distinction drawn between civilian leaders and the military forces that serve under them?
Meaning that they went to great lengths to convince themselves they were right.
Your argument pretty much means we can’t morally judge much of anyone, past or present, since very few people do evil without coming up with an excuse or rationalization of some kind. I suppose we should let everyone out of prison who’s smart enough to come up with an excuse for their actions, if that’s enough to absolve someone of blame.
You are doing so when you claim that we can’t judge them for being slavers because they had “different standards”.
Of course.
So you see why “There is no Confederacy without Confederate soldiers” fails, yes? Because it’s ignoring exactly that principle.
What are you saying? That the civilians are compelled to fight in the war simply because their leaders make them?
I can’t say I spend any time worrying about it but, if asked yes or no, I’d say no. They fought against the United States of America and Memorial Day (as far as I’m concerned) is about observing those who fought and died for the US of A. Whatever their personal conviction may have been, I don’t consider them US soldiers nor deserving of remembrance along side US soldiers.
What’s the difference?
No, feel free to morally judge your contemporaries. Condemning Robert E. Lee or George Washington or Henry VIII or Richard the Lionhearted for falling short of a moral code that didn’t exist when they were alive is entirely different.
That is not a defense of slavery by any reasonable definition.
There is no context where slavery is acceptable. A person is a person. That is plain to see. Locking them up in chains and forcing them to do your will is wrong. It is one of the most heinous crimes against humanity that people are capable of. I have no doubt they knew what they were doing. They just didn’t care.
You don’t see any difference between simply being wrong and between manufacturing excuses? :dubious:
Except they violated a code that existed at the time, and well before. They violated their own principles; they just went to a great deal of trouble to try to handwave it away as not counting.
I disagree. You are defending their defense of slavery, which is defending slavery. Just at one remove.
So your Memorial Day excludes soldiers of the Revolution, and 1812, and the Mexican War, and the early Indian wars? All were fought by and for a United States that condoned and relied upon slavery.
My direct ancestor fought for the North at Gettysburg, and lived thank goodness or I’d not be here now. But if he had been killed, we’d be supposed to honor the side that killed him? I don’t think so.
Let’s settle this. Memorial Day was first established in 1868, to honor Union war dead, according to General Orders No.11 of The Grand Army of the Republic:
It could not be clearer that the Confederacy and its soldiers were “our foes” and were not included in this order. The same site says the Confederate states all refused to designate that date as a Memorial Day for their own soldiers until after WWII.
By statute, 36 USC § 116 (according to Cornell Law School), citizenship and military service are both irrelevant. The language says,
As far as I can tell, those are the only specifications in law about who should be remembered on Memorial Day. If you can find something more specific, I invite you to find it and post a cite to that effect.
Question: Did Confederate soldiers give their lives in the service of the United States?
Answer: No.
Question: Were Confederate soldiers loyal to the United States?
Answer: No.
Questions: Were they Americans? Were they soldiers?
Answer: Irrelevant.
That certainly complicates things. However, those wars were not about the right to own slaves, correct?
Leaning no. If the American Civil War was actually a civil war, there might be a case for it, but the Rebs were fighting to leave the United States (and indirectly fighting to preserve slavery to boot).
False. Memorial Day is to honor people who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces. Not Americans who died fighting in any armed force, but specifically people who died fighting in the United States Armed Forces, whether or not they were Americans (yes, non-Americans can and have served in our military).
Just stop now with your ridiculous “presentism” arguments and your defense of the proponents of slavery; your arguments do not have facts behind them.
Just to put the icing on the cake, [here is the original proclamation for Decoration Dayissued by Maj. Gen. John A. Logan, head of the Grand Army of the Republic, a veterans organization, in 1868 (I’ve helpfully bolded the important parts):
](General Order 11 | May 5th 1868 | Memorial Day Order)
ETA: Scooped just two posts before by Boyo Jim!
In the little cemetery out in the country where I will be buried there are a number of Union veterans and one Confederate. One year, when flags were placed on the graves of all veterans of any war, this guy had a US flag planted on his grave. Granted, he was born a US citizen, and died as one but in between he fought for the Confederacy. He was the father of a great-aunt by marriage of mine, with no relatives left to honor the grave, so we took up the US flag and put a Confederate one on the grave. After all, this is a guy who named his son "R. E. Lee (Surname), and we figured that’s the way he would have wanted it.
After reading this thread I’d like to change my vote to hell no.
People who worked to make the world better for other people. Louis Pasteur, Harriet Tubman, Susan B. Anthony, for example. “Bravery”? History is rife with suicidally brave killers. They’re a dime a dozen on the ground, and bravery in the name of killing other people is not a virtue by itself. “Honor”? If your system of honor means you’ll kill other people in order to keep a third group enslaved, that’s not something I still value.