So, again…if they’re looking for a weapon, can they open up the 35mm film cannister on the floor of the car.
You mentioned they might have an object in mind, like a horse, or a marble elephant, or a gun. Where would this be stated? on an official warrant, or verbally?
If what their looking for can not fit inside the film cannister, can they open it?
I read recently that it *could * be withdrawn. Is my imagination working overtime?
Thanks,
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Probably not. http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=11138
If they are searching, they will have to have some object in mind.
Probably not until you get to court.
This gets very complicated. On the one hand, film cannisters are often used as containers for drugs. If there were enough other circumstances present (and I’m assuming for the moment that the police will not embellish their stories), like non-tobacco pipes, roach clips, the smell of marijuana, etc. they could conclude that the container probably contained contraband. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=al&vol=1012018&invol=2
Just a film container on the floor and nothing else (or maybe camera equipment that has not been reported stolen)? Probably not.
In some cases it can. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=4th&navby=case&no=945915p ;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=10th&navby=case&no=994135; http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/jurissep.htm; http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wa&vol=2006_app/326906MAJ&invol=4 ;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=nv&vol=118NevAdvOpNo38&invol=2
In my case, the cop said something like, “Do you understand that you can withdraw your consent at any time?” So it can be, at least sometimes.
And I’ve thought of a possible explanation. Say a bank had just been robbed and the report was, “We’re looking for two young white males in a blue midsize sedan.” And then the police see my car (which fits all the criteria) and decide to search it. Does that count as probable cause?
So, I understand that one can refuse the request for a vehicle search, but it seems like the consequences can be negative.
Instead of a hypothetical “one can refuse”, do you mind my asking what do you all do (or would you do) in practice, and why? Assume that you are not aware of anything illegal hidden in your car, which is probably the default case for someone just considering refusing the search. (If you think that there might be something illegal in the car, then it sounds like you should do your best to refuse the search, and just suffer the consequences of pissing off the law enforcement guy.)
I’d like to hear from the police officers here what the practical consequences of refusing a search are. Should we expect to be ticketed for petty offenses, as mentioned above, or what?
Riding in a car with a friend of mine many years ago. Cops pulled him over and asked for license and registration .After hassling him his partner turned to me and said give me your license and registration. I said no.I am riding not driving and have committed no crime. He started pushing me around but I stood firm After a while his partner said that he was getting pissed off enough to bust me over the head with a flashlight and I should give it up. I reluctantly did. They found nothing and left. I still think I should have stood my ground.
Thank you for the links, GFactor; quite correct. I only added the “cannot be withdrawn” verbiage as a sort of “worst-case scenario” from the suspect’s point of view. A bit like “anything you say can and WILL be used against you in a court of law”, where there are tons of things that you say that aren’t really used against you. IOW, it’s to dissuade a suspect from thinking if he opens the glove box and sees the bag of white powder, I’ll just revoke my consent and be on my merry way. Point taken, though.
The key problem is that you don’t know what caused them to ask in the first place: are they just curious; are they just being assholes; or are they acting on information or watch-lists where you/your vehicle are a close match?
If they’re just curious, then probably nothing would happen - or at least, nothing more than what could have happened anyway.
If they’re just being jerks, it depends a lot on how disciplined the department is, and how sociopathic the officers are. I’ve worked with some pretty tightly-wound officers.
If they’re operating on a hunch (you fit a description of suspects; a strange odor is detected in your car; you made odd movements when you were stopped), then it boils down to how much time/resources they have to follow up, and how strong the evidence you are involved seems to them. For example, if I saw your passenger hunch over (apparently to put something under the seat) while you were slowly stopping your vehicle, I might ask the K-9 unit to swing by if he was in the area. I’d also run your license and registration through every available database (within reason), and possibly question your passenger separately to see if there were any glaring discrepancies. And, of course, I’d ask if I could have a look in your vehicle.
Sometimes it boils down to whose time is more valuable: yours or his? If you refuse a search and the cop tickets you for a number of petty violations, he is going to have to follow up those tickets in court. Any sane judge will see that the tickets are just harrassment and toss them out, giving the cop and his department a black mark. Most departments don’t like things like that, as it pisses of the judge. Is it worth it to you to take the time to fight the tickets?
(side note) This has happened to me before. No consent to search, tickets for a number of mechanical “violations” that were bogus. Went to court for them. Cop failed to show and I had a statement from a mechanic that the “fix-its” weren’t broken to begin with. In, out in 30 minutes. Of course, I was a student and didn’t have to take time off of work. YMMV. And the plural of anecdote isn’t data.
Many police officers feel that a person who refuses a search request is a non-cooperative, ‘jailhouse lawyer’ type. Just the kind of person to later file harrassment charges against the officer, and make them go thru all the paperwork & hassle that involves. So for their own protection, they will write a ticket for whatever original offense* brought you to their attention enough that they pulled you over. This leaves a paper trail, a ticket written, that makes it harder to claim ‘harrassment’.
Had you cooperated and allowed the search, they might have felt comfortable enough to just give you a verbal warning or write up a fix-it warning.
- Don’t think you’ve committed any offense? I’ve had many officers tell me that they can follow a car for one block, and have enough probable cause to pull it over, and for a ticket or two.
Things like driving too close to the center line or too far toward the shoulder, too fast for conditions, suspiciously slow, failed to signal lane change, not all occupants wearing seat belts, etc. Once you’re stopped, they have all the paperwork issues (valid license, proof of insurance, current license plates, license plates not dirty, etc.) and all the equipment issues (lights, mirrors working, signals working, horn working, parking brake working, etc.) as possible things to generate a ticket. If they want to be nitpicky, they could probably write up a valid ticket for most cars on the road.
In a similar discussion, different thread, I seem to recall that the police had a limited amount of time that they could detain a driver while obtaining a warrant. Anyone else recall that?
Were you thinking of cases that talk more generally about the permissible duration of a *Terry * Stop of a vehicle? E.g., http://www.kscourts.org/ca10/cases/2000/07/99-6180.htm
Why would somebody consent to a search under any circumstances? I mean most of us have nothing to hide, but that’s your car and other people shouldn’t be pawing through it. I think “Don’t touch my stuff” always outweighs “I don’t want to look suspicious”.
I have never had a confrontation with an officer of the law that crossed any lines personally (although I’ve witnessed it happening to friends), but I pray I never do. I’m the kind of person to stand my ground until I need stitches, new teeth and a very good lawyer.
Basically if somebody is disrespectful to me, I will respond in a manner that gives me sufficient self-satisfaction not to feel like a sucker. So, I guess my follow-up question is what lines does one have to cross verbally before you can get cuffed (or even arrested) during a routine traffic stop? Is that even possible? Are there things that you can say in a normal calm tone of voice (excluding obvious things like threats or confessions and such) that will lead you to being cuffed or arrested? What about deadpan references about the officers mother having a rather promiscious nature that is quite amusing considering her extreme physical dimensions? 
Then why do they ask?
Why go that far? Simply say “No, you may not search my vehicle”. Repeat it ad infinitum until they either get a warrant or leave. There’s no need to be belligerent or obnoxious about it.
Because without your consent they still have to have probable cause to search your vehicle. No consent plus no probable cause equals no legal search. If they ask and you say yes then they get around the probable cause requirement.
quote=Doors]Airman Doors, USAF
Why go that far? Simply say “No, you may not search my vehicle”. Repeat it ad infinitum until they either get a warrant or leave.
[/quote]
As has been stated several times, no warrant is necessary to search your car. See Gfactor’s cite for Maryland v Dyson.
About 5 years ago, two Sheriffs Deputy cars pulled up my drive way. One was a ‘Drug car’ with a dog.
At the time, my Wife was about 2 hours overdue. Not that unusual, since she does a lot of running and biking. But when those sheriffs cars pulled up, I was sure something must have happened to my Wife. I was so nervous and scared when I went to meet them in the drive that my knees where visibly shaking.
They said they where at my house because someone used my name and address on a bail form, and ended up skipping. Now. They had very, very little information about the person that skipped. It was from a jurisdiction 100 miles away in the city. I can’t imagine how anyone could have gotten my info. Our house is pretty remote. We don’t even get mail here.
The exchange went something like this.
Deputies – Do you know Sue Smith?
Me – Never heard of her. I thought maybe something had happened to my Wife. Why are you here?
Deputies – Is there anyone else in the house?
Me – No. Is my Wife OK? She’s a little overdue, that’s what has made me so nervous.
Deputies – Sue Smith might be an alias. No one else is in the house?
Me – No. Just my Wife and I live here. Is my Wife OK? What is Sue Smiths real name?
Deputies – We aren’t sure if that’s an alias or not. No one else is in the house?
Me – No one else is here, you can come in and check if you want.
Now. My house, being a little remote, with big solar collecting southern windows would probably be a great place to grow things. I invited the sheriffs deputies in. It seem like they wanted to look around.
It was a very odd half hour or so. They kept asking about this person that I had never heard of. And they were not even sure if it was an alias or not, yet she had supposedly skipped out on bail from a town 100 miles away.
I asked them in. But I think the whole think was done on false pretences. I later called the Sheriff of the town that person supposable skipped from and they had never heard of her.
I really should have followed through on it more. It was all very vague, and I was so worried that something had happened to my Wife when they pulled up, I was not thinking clearly, and did not get enough information.