And why do people in Europe think they deserve a satisfactory explanation for any of it? I’ll bet anything there’s a stream of those new immigrants coming straight out of France, in fact. And no, I don’t think we Americans are going to get a satisfactory explanation for that, or much of an acknowledgment whatsoever.
I don’t know what to make of Little Green Footballs. Yes, maybe it’s a hate site underneath the trappings of news coverage…I don’t know. But I’ll say this, I see no difference between that and the Indymedia Bush=Hitler Zionists=Nazis etc. utter bullshit being passed off as some valid political view. Hate is hate, after all. Isn’t it?
You’ve got it exactly backwards. What has happened is that the always-present European anti-semitism is now rearing its head once again. The shame of the Holocaust has worn off, and the abberation of the last 50 years has come to an end. The Intifada just provides an excuse.
Since attacking Jews simply for being Jews is not yet acceptable again, “Zionism” or “Israeli” is now used as the backdoor way to discriminate against Jews. This professor (and the rest of his ilk) wouldn’t say the same thing about a Russian army veteran or a Chinese army veteran, despite the fact that their armies are guilty of atrocities that wouldn’t even be considered by the Israeli army, much less performed. What is the difference, then? It’s hard to point to anything besides the fact that the student is Jewish.
If you read the “apology” issued by Professor Wilkie, he’s only sorry that he’s been caught. You can be quite sure that in the future, he’ll just make up a reason why he won’t have any yids in his lab. And you can be quite sure that the university won’t discipline him a bit.
JonBodner, your bigoted statements aimed at Europeans are appalling. You are no better than December.
There is no collective European shame concerning the jews in particular. Europe fought Nazi Germany and was not responsible for the Holocaust. Meanwhile Americans sat on their hands knowing about the Holocaust (http://www.kimel.net/fdr.html) until they came in for the kill after Russia had worn Germany down.
Hmmph. Well, I don’t particularly like being correct then. Not now.
I have no agenda to promote…“ever-present anti-Semitism” on the rise again is just a bit too pat and too vague of a reason. I’m not boycotting France, I think the idea is foolish and the motives suspect and even the graffiti on that war cemetary in the picture beamed over here smacked of fakeness. I mean really, who the hell neatly prints graffiti. We have not seen slavery on the rise again, we have not seen homosexuals jailed again, etc. Total regression isn’t seen very often. But supposedly we’re seeing it.
Now on the Israeli side, the Palestinians seem to have this well-run propaganda machine with a direct link to European outlets. At times in street shots you’ll catch them putting on their grief-stricken faces after checking for the camera, and things like that. “20 dead civilians” and the fact that they’re armed and uniformed is just, well, beside the point…I don’t even believe half of them are Palestinians but obviously most people will.
I’d love to know what all this propaganda results in. Detrimental to Israel, to France, to the US…yes I know that. But it seems increasingly that wedges are driven between France and the US, France and Israel, France and the UK…looks suspicious after a while, that’s all. Any thoughts?
A dangerous equivocation in modern politics is the dearly-held belief that disagreement with Israeli government policies is the same thing as antisemitism.
If you can’t discern a difference between the state of Israel and the religion of Judaism, you’ve got a slight problem. There are religious Jews who think Israel was a very bad idea. There are Jewish atheists who cheer Israel like it was the high school football home team.
I’d like to reiterate what JonBodner pointed out above. The calls out of Europe for academic and economic boycotts seem to be focused on Israel. There is so much bad stuff happening in the world right now that this focus leaves people questioning what makes Israel so special.
Aung San Suu Kyi is beat up and imprisoned in a shithole in Burma. Turkey beats up Kurdish rebels and occupies Cyprus. China occupies Tibet and still imprisons/kills dissidents. Half of Africa is involved in rebellions in which the rebels cut off limbs of children in order to make their point. Hell, America is imprisoning significant chunks of the Afghani male population indefinitely in Cuba, without any sort of legal status or protection.
But the calls focus on Israel. I’m not saying it is totally undeserved, but even the most left-wing European can recognize that in a conflict people will get their hands bloodied.
So I look for an underlying meaning. It could be that Israel is seen as a “western” democracy, and thus held to a higher standard. It could be that such a disproportionate chunk of academia is contributed by Israelis (I’m in molecular biology, just like the OP guy, and I can vouch for this). Or it could be vestiges of European anti-Semitism.
I don’t see much anti-Semitism. In places that it really counts, it is loudly shouted down. What follows is a 3 AM rant. What I think is that Israel is put on a pedestal, as a Platonic ideal for Democratic Values in a sea of unwashed masses. Western nations tend to condescend the Arab countries (and African ones and just about any less-than-fully-developed country). Witness Bush in the Iraq war: we needed to go in there and set up a “beacon of democracy” for them, we needed to show the Arab world how good our government is before they will be able to give up their “primitive” way of life. So Israel not only has to be good, it has to be a “beacon.” Israel needs to behave itself, to the point of accepting attacks, because the Arabs can’t be expected to play by the rules. The Palestinians don’t need to give up suicide bombings, they don’t need to give up their anti-Semitism, because Israel, as a civilized country, bears the onus and should be the “beacon.” So whatever Israel does won’t be good enough: Western nations (especially those in Europe) believe Israel should act in an idealized fashion. Nevermind the fact that European nations have dealt with armed insurgency just as brutally as the Israelis. Why is this? Because there is worlds of difference between the refined air of European academia and what happens on the streets when bombs are going off in cafes. End 3 AM rant.
Let me get this straight: A French newspaper publishes a tasteless crossword puzzle and that is enough to taint all of Europe as racist anti-semites. The French who read that paper and did not object to it, the French who read the paper and objected, the French who do not read that paper, the French who do not even know that paper exists, the Germans, the Italians, the Dutch, etc. All a bunch of racists on account of that.
And yet a website which allows people to routinely post racist anti-Palestinian comments has to be considered a neutral source and the comments only reflect on their authors.
So rather than actually argue on merits and cites, you resort to personal attacks. Now that’s classy.
The Europeans who shoved Jews onto trains, who ran the death camps, who looked the other way while their fellow citizens were singled out for special treatment, who stole the property of Jews that were deported for extermination certainly enabled the Holocaust. The British refusal to allow more Jews into Palestine enabled the Holocaust. While some countries did not do this, you don’t manage to exterminate 6 million people spread across a continent without significant help. Only a half-million of those Jews were actually IN Germany.
Given the treatement of Jews in Europe over the past 1,000 years, you’d be hard-pressed to not find a history of anti-semitism. And given the hate directed towards Israel for engaging in acts that are mild compared to those committed by countries embraced by Europeans (Zimbabwe, anyone?), you’d be hard-pressed to find a reason besides anti-semitism. I’m not saying that Israel is beyond criticism. What I’m saying is that when Israel is criticized for acts that others engage in, what is the reason?
Unless you’ve got another reason. I figure you’ll just find some other way to insult me rather than answering the question, but I like a nice surprise.
One, Russia is one of the countries with the bloodiest hands. Do left-wing Europeans consider Russia some sort of backwards, broken state? If they do, they’ve got a lot to answer about their love affair with the USSR.
Secondly, your argument reminds me of a “family values” guy I heard on NPR the other day. He said that he was against legalized sodomy for homosexuals not because he hated gay people, but because sodomy was a terrible health hazzard and he just didn’t want to see any more sick men. Clearly, this is a pathetic rationalization. And so is saying that Europeans just have Israel’s best interests at heart when they call for boycotts of Israel, call Jews Nazis, consider it morally equivalent to blow up old people sitting down to a religious meal and soldiers fighting street by booby-trapped street to root out terrorists, and treat Israel as a pariah for engaging in acts that aren’t even close to beyond the pale.
In short, what you are saying is that Europeans are such incredible racists that they don’t think the stupid wogs are even capable of acting like human beings, and they care about Israel so much that they think it’s proper for Israel to be destroyed by the aforementioned cretins. You should ask a European about that theory some time and see if they agree. It doesn’t even pass the laugh test.
No, the condemnation of Israel for acts which are routinely ignored or praised when committed by other nations is anti-semitism. Unless you have another reason why Robert Mugabe gets state vists to European countries while the PM of Ireland refuses to meet with Ariel Sharon?
At the same time as the US sat on its hands, Europeans where fighting and risking their lives to keep their Jews alive. Even Mussolini, Hitlers staunchest allie refused to give his Jews up. Even then Europeans and 99% of Germans didnt know about deathcamps. Roosevelt did.
I would take you seriously if you actually wrote from a bastion of racial harmony. A week since the last large scale black riot? 12% of blacks age 20-30 in jail. Your one to talk trash about Europes race relations.
You spew hypocrisy as well as bigotry and Euro hate. At the same time you accuse others of anti semitism and link to a Muslim Hate site.
And how would you know? I didn’t make any comment about history, just stated that I thought the Jewish state should never have been created at the first place.
[ quote]The Holocaust was just the last stage in a very long history of mistreatment of Jews by not just European countries […] So, he exterminated them, with large numbers of non-German Europeans providing all the help they could (for example, the French rounded up their Jewish citizens before the Nazis asked).
[/quote]
Nothing new here. Or were you thinking that one couldn’t possibly have heard about the Zionist movement, the Dreyfus affair, the Holocaust, and still think that the creation of the Jewish state had no legitimacy?
What you said explain why the Jews were motivated to create such a state, but it doesn’t mean that they had any legitimate right to do so. From my point of view, that was plain colonialism, whether or not the Jews had good reasons to think it was in their best interest is irrelevant.
Exterminated? Well…I’ll leave this statement at that, because there has been a lenghty debate about the dhimmi status on this board very recently, by people much more aknowledgeable than me.
In…1948??? Interesting. Could it be that the Jews being expelled or fleeing Arab countries was the consequence of the creation of the state of Israel? Hmmm? You seem to imply by mentionning this in this part of your post that it could be a reason for the its creation, when of course it isn’t.
Yep. But in most other countries, there isn’t a dispute/war fought over the legitimate owning of the land. Bringing in more “friends” when you’re already accused of being stealing the territory of another people and forbidding their friends from coming back is a very different situation.
Beside, the religious basis used for immigration is for me an issue in itself, but secondary to my point above.
Ancestral home? As in 2000 years ago? Totally irrelevant for me. The fact that 80 generations ago, possibly some of your ancestors lived on some piece of land don’t you give you any right to this piece of land. And certainly way more right than someone who can prove that his father was living on the said place of land 50 years ago.
Possibly because there was already people living in this “ancestral land”??? Hmmm?? And that the european colonial power in charge had no legitimacy in handing out this land to them against the will of the people actually living there?
The Jews might have been victimized by the romans and expelled from their land very, very, long time ago, but that is history (and remote history at that), and irrelevant when considering the current situation (and by the way may I remind you, since we’re apparently allowed to come back in time, that the Jewish ancestors were themselves invaders who took over the territory from their original owners, as mentionned in…I can’t remember exactly, but must be some old book Jewish people tend to consider with high regard.
But perhaps I should accept your reasonning. I wrote in my post above that most Israelis had now a legitimate claim because they were born and have lived all their live in Israel, but maybe you’re right. Perhaps this doesn’t give them any right to live there at all, since the grand-parents of other people were there before them, and perhaps they should just leave and let the proven descendants of Palestinians take over (of course, they will in turn leave as soon as someone will be able to prove his ancestors had an even older claim. Eventually, any Jew who will be able to document, showing birth certificates from the last 2000 years, that his ancestors were living in Israel will be allowed to come back).
Let’s be serious…a 2000 years old claim is totally meaningless.
Once again, the fact that Jews might had good reasons to want to have their own country didn’t give them the right to carve out this country wherever they felt like at the detriment of of the people already living there.
And it most certainly doesn’t give them any justification or any moral leverage when they are acccused of oppressing the palestinians.
And why do anybody thinks he deserves any satisfactory explanation for any event? Why anybody would deserve an explanation for why palestinian are planting bombs in Jerusalem? They’re just doing so. They must have some reason to, that’s their business. Why is anybody debatting this issue at all? Why would it be an issue anyway? Please, people, mind your own business and forget about everything which isn’t happening inside your hometown.
You know, I felt the same way when the Chinese ran tanks over students and threw people in jail for practicing meditation. I figured they just deserved it.
Personally, I’m pulling for another IRA bombing campaign in London, and maybe a return of the Marxist terrorist attacks in France, Germany, and Italy. After all, they probably deserve it, too.
Yes. And people who criticize the Palestinians are actually all foaming at the mouth scumbags who in fact hate all arabs. It’s just a backdoor way to express their strongly racist views and to discriminate against brown-colored people.
