The Crane Brouhaha over Gaza, Pit edition

I meant what I said. Yes, in your example, you are still clearly continuing the joke. Crane made it clear he was not. I just did not quote the full post where he did so.

The point of my argument was to rebut MrDibble’s claim that his original post could have just been hyperbole to express emotion.

I did make this argument, but in a previous post.

That was not my claim. I specifically said he was being a hyperbolic dick to troll. From my first post:

I just disagree that trolling the particular group he set out to troll constitutes antisemitism, to any degree.

And since we’re in the Pit : fuck off with thinking your very poor readings of any of my previous posts on particular racists have any relevance here. You’re not going to catch me in whatever pseudo-logical gotcha you were attempting, because my stance is consistent. But do feel free to try it on here in the Pit, where I can give your personalizing of the argument all due reverence…

I think Crane was being anti-semitic in the same way that a racist might say, after (for example) a vicious gang shooting that killed children in Chicago, “if only they were as kind as their forefathers’ owners in the 1800s”. Comparing Jews to Nazis is anti-semitic, barring some very, very unusual circumstances; just as comparing Black Americans to Southern slave-owners is racist (again barring very unusual circumstances).

Bullshit. Not when those Jews are doing genocides, and that’s what you’re comparing, it’s not.

Was I being antisemitic with this post?

If Black Americans started owning slaves, would comparing their slaveowning be racist?.

R. Kelly was a slave-owner in all but name. I still think it would be racist to say “he should have been as kind as his great-great-grandad’s owner”. Plenty of ways to abhor what he did without trying to link a black man to slave-owners (and in particular say he’s worse than slave-owners).

So I’ll amend what I said – saying Jews are worse than Nazis is anti-semitic.

No, R. Kelly is a sex criminal, not a slaveowner.

Dickish? Yes, extremely so. Racist? Nope.

If he’s literally slave-owning, that’s a valid comparison.

If the IOF actually behaves worse than Nazis, saying so would in no fucking way be antisemitic. The Nazis are the universal yardstickfor comparison for “worst génocidaires”. That’s got fuck-all to do with antisemitism.


In this case, they were NOT worse than the Nazis (which obviously means very little – IDF actions in Gaza, and overall Israeli government policy towards Gaza and the West Bank, are plenty bad enough), so in this case, Crane was being antisemitic by saying they were worse than Nazis. I do think Jews are a special case when it comes to comparing to Nazis. Maybe because I’m a Jew, and have Jewish ancestors who escaped the Holocaust (and other relatives who didn’t).

If he wasn’t being antisemitic if we mostly agreed they were being worse, he’s not being antisemitic even if just he thinks they are.

Just wrong.

Fuck. That. Noise.

Then I think we can leave it there. We disagree.

You can’t tell her where to go or what to do or how to post! Stop trying to push her back into her little corner! (channeling)

iiandyiiii gets it. There’s just no reason to compare Jews to Nazis other than to troll them. It’s not like there’s any shortage of other examples of colonialist ethnic cleansing you could use.

To take another example, strongly opposing the ongoing Chinese atrocities in Tibet is always appropriate, and doing so isn’t anti-Chinese racism. If, in speaking to a Chinese person, you said China’s actions were “worse than the Nazis”, you’d just be hyperbolic. If you chose to say it was “worse than the rape of Nanking”, you’re being a dick.

At the risk of trying to start a serious conversation on the 26th page of a Pit thread, Israel is often called an “apartheid State”. As someone with firsthand experience, how do you feel about that analogy? (to Mr Dibble, obviously)

But the Nazis are the worst.

Yes, you would very much be a dick. But I disagree that you would be being racist against the Chinese for using that example.

Alessan once persuaded me that wasn’t the case. Then Israel persuaded me, very hard, that it is, in fact, the case.

Yeah that, almost certainly, is anti-Semitic . . . now comparing Israel to Nazi (Germany) on the other hand…
Or do we want to adopt the very anti-Semitic claim that all, non-Israeli, Jews have dual loyalties?

Comparing any regime anywhere that didn’t start a world war within six years of taking power to Nazi Germany is inappropriate IMO.

I think there’s wide agreement that he was being a dick. There’s a difference between being a dick and being antisemitic.

And IMO, that’s just special pleading. When the thing you’re comparing them on is as specific as, say, committing genocide, whether they also did or didn’t start World Wars is irrelevant.

There’s no contradiction here. You also said what I said.

Look, my feeling is - once you believe, as I do, that both the Nazis and IOF are génocidaires, expressing Shock! and Horror! that anyone even dare make the comparison or say someone is worse than the Nazis just starts seeming like sowing FUD of a different kind.

You were saying that the comparison is an okay thing to say as an emotional reaction.

And I have no problem continuing the argument here, but I don’t quite know what you mean by “personalizing the argument.” If it means referencing perceived inconsistencies with what you’ve said in the past, then I don’t understand why you object. I would expect the same from others. I can either explain why it isn’t inconsistent, or reevaluate to see if I am or was wrong. But I can try to avoid it.

I still contend that people calling you antisemitic should not be relevant when determining if a poster was being antisemitic. You are not evaluating based on any Doper’s say-so. You can look at what the poster said, and look at the logic in the arguments being made to claim it was antisemitic.

I also think you’re conflating “said something antisemitic” with “being an antisemite”. I agree with you that there is insufficient evidence that Crane is an antisemite. But I do think there is enough evidence to show that, on the whole, what he said is antisemitic.

And I don’t agree with you that his statement only attacked Zionists, because Zionists were not the only ones harmed in the Holocaust. Any downplaying of what happened in the Holocaust attacks all Jewish people. His attack trolled Jewish people as a whole, and trolling a specific ethnicity is bigotry towards that ethnicity.

I also just don’t agree that ignorance means something isn’t bigoted, as a general principle. I do not agree that the message that antebellum Black slaves were not really mistreated by their masters is not racists, even if the person who says it really didn’t know they were wrong. The claim itself is racist, just like a claim that minimizes how the Waffen SS treated Jewish people. In fact, the only way I can see Crane to believe that they were “kinder” is that he heard it from some neo-Nazis.

Finally, I will say that I thought the principles behind what I’m saying was stuff we agreed on, based on things you’ve said in the past. My reaction was more of being bewildered by your arguments. But, if you are not being inconsistent, then I will take that under advisement and reassess my understanding of what you have said in the past.

Because you were the last person I thought I’d see argue that what Crane said wasn’t antisemitic, and the last person I thought would make the arguments you did.

“just” means something.

It took you 4 days to come up with this bullshit? Fuck. Off.

No, I was saying it was to elicit an emotional reaction, not as an expression of Crane’s own emotions. Just stop trying to read into what I post and try actually reading what’s literally there.

The comparison is an OK thing to say because comparing one set of génocidaires to another set on how they conduct their genocide is an OK thing to do.

Misperceived inconsistencies, but yes, they are absolutely irrelevant. Because the argument I’m making has fuck-all to do with me or what my attitudes to other racist has been.

I don’t need to be consistent. I could be wildly inconsistent (I’m not). It would not matter to the substance of this argument.

It’s, in fact, the very model of a modern ad hominem. If I were a hypocrite (I’m not) that matters not a fuck to this argument.

It’s not. It’s relevant to whether I even bother to check beyond the clear words.

I did that. They were not.

Distinction without difference, when the issue is whether he gets a warning for antisemitic utterances. Antisemite is quicker to type than person who said something antisemitic.

No shit. You don’t say!

Elevating the IOF actions isn’t the same as downplaying the Nazis. It’s emphasizing how truly abhorrent the IOF are.

If I (hypothetically) said Pol Pot or Stalin was in some ways worse than Hitler, does that mean I’m being antisemitc? I don’t fucking think so.

The fact that we’ve had arguments about this kind of thing in the past should clue you into the fact that you have very little comprehension of my stance on many things, and never have had.

Really? What the ever-living fuck would make you think I’d fall for this “anti-Zionist necessarily equals antisemitic” bullshit the IOF-fondlers would like us all to swallow as though it were true, based off anything I’ve ever posted on colonialism, Israel or … anything at all, really?

Just so we’re clear - I, for one, don’t regard the Holocaust as special or sacrosanct in any way, shape or form. It was the worst genocide we’ve had so far by absolute bodycount, and that’s it. That doesn’t leave it immune to use in comparisons, that doesn’t preclude some aspects of other genocides being worse atrocities (Unit 731 being far worse than what Mengele and co did, for example), and it certainly doesn’t make all usages of those comparisons antisemitic.

@hajario Since the relevant thread was closed:

Just imagine

Wait, I don’t have to “imagine”. It’s always been the reality for Black and Brown posters here.

White people tell Black and Brown people how they should feel about racism All. The. Fucking. Time.

On this board.

Banquet_Bear, an indigenous Brown person, has been modded quite frequently for speaking his feelings about indigenous genocide and other related topics. He’s one of the very, very few actual indigenous people on the damn board, and he gets handled like this:

I’ve lost count of the number of times White posters and mods have told me my feelings on racist topics are flat-out wrong.

Jews playing “more oppressed than thou” would be amusing - if it wasn’t so very fucking wrong.

Let’s see Thing.Fish get a topic ban suggested about posting about antisemitism outside the Pit…