I am disappointed in you, Mr. Dibble. I agree that racist tone policing has been a big problem with the moderation on this board, and I have tried my best to be an ally. I’m sorry you can’t treat me and the other Jews on the board with the same respect.
Happy to treat Jews with respect. You haven’t seen me get personal with the pro-Israel posters in these threads much, have you?
Not going to coddle you though, by avoiding any and all comparisons between the IOF and other killers, and certainly not going to stand by without comment while some of you launch your laughably misguided attempt at an Oppression Olympics gold medal.
So are you going to call hajario out for that not even wrong attempt at Jewish Exceptionalism? Because that would be allyship.
I don’t see any “exceptionalism” in what hajario wrote. It sucks when members of minority groups are told that they aren’t capable of deciding when somebody is being offensive toward them because they aren’t “objective”. Jews are certainly far from being the most marginalized group in Western society or on this board, but it sucks whenever it happens to anybody.
Quite a few long-time and generally respected posters, some of whom have been vociferously critical of Israel’s current actions, have agreed with my complaints against Crane. I would hope at some point you would think “maybe there’s something here that I don’t fully understand, but I’m going to defer to those who have lived experience around this issue”.
You have no problem with what this means?
Because to me it means he’s saying no other group is told how they’re supposed to feel about shit like this.
I’m not asking Jews to be “objective”, BTW. I am asking them to be less hyperbolic with calling all criticism of the IOF antisemitic, or equating all anti-Zionist sentiment with antisemitism.
Hell, even if I thought Israel didn’t have a right to exist as an ethnostate, that still wouldn’t be antisemitic.
Well, if Hajario actually believes that no other group experiences this, he is very, very wrong. But I think you’re reading way too much into this phrasing, and that he doesn’t believe anything of the kind.
I absolutely agree that criticism of Israel, including anti-Zionist sentiment, isn’t necessarily anti-Semitic. But some of it is, and Crane’s Jew-baiting falls squarely into that category.
I am taking the plain reading of his words exactly as he wrote them. If he was being metaphorically hyperbolic, he’s free to say so.
I still fail to see it as Jew-baiting., That it was targeted at a subset of Jews doesn’t rise to Jew-baiting, any more than, say, yelling invective at evangelical doorbell-ringers (with a sword!) makes one anti-Christian.
I have explicitly said I think he was trolling. I think he used particularly hurtful-to-Jews imagery to do so. I don’t think he attacked them because those targets were Jews. Not all IOF cheerleaders on this board are, AFAIK.
OK, I don’t really think we have anything to argue about then.
If we pretend that the Jewish people are mean nasty colonizers rather than also an indigenous people, you’d have a point.
In actuality, Jewish people and Palestinians are both Indigenous to the Levant; despite a concentrated campaign of erasure, we cannot forget this fact.
Banquet_Bear doesn’t have a unique authority to speak on behalf of Palestinians. He is about as removed from the situation as it is physically possible to be, without being on the moon.
So, since the ATMB thread is (rightfully, alas) closed at the moment, I’ll ask here.
I agree that he was trolling. I agree that he chose imagery that is hurtful to Jews. And i moderated the post and told him to stop. But you think that because it was only a mod note and a threat to be banned from the thread, and not a formal warning, that the site is antisemitic and should put a swastika in the banner? (I think that was you.)
WTF?
Also, for the record, I’m a Jew. I practice enough that i hosted a seder last night. Admittedly, my left-wing crowd was uncomfortable with parts of the text, and the starvation in Palestine was brought up several times during the service. But most of the people at the table (including all the people who interrupted to talk about Palestine) are Jews. We are pro-Jewish.
I’m just anti slamming people for going overboard on emotional topics. I believe that a time out is better than a spanking in those cases.
These two statements don’t jive for me. I get not coming down too hard on people for emotional topics if they, for example, cross over the line and insult someone.
But trolling isn’t something you do because you were feeling a lot of emotion and slipped up. Trolling is something you calculate and plan in order to elicit the maximum emotional response. Trolling a highly emotional topics seems worse to me than trolling a less charged topic, the opposite of something like a personal insult where we can understand why a slip up happened.
People who feel very strongly often care a lot about getting a reaction. I think there’s real overlap there.
Aah, that does make a difference, then.
To me, trolling implies disingenuousness, and people who actually care about something aren’t disingenuous about it.
Anyways, since the ATMB thread is closed and the matter appears to be settled, I won’t waste my breath further; I’ll just note my disappointment, as well as my lack of surprise, and move on.
They could be (historically) indigenous to the region and still mean, nasty colonizers.
Didn’t claim he did.
Palestinians weren’t even the indigenous group in the thread I was referring to.
That’s got squat to do with whether his facts are correct. And he’s always brought plenty of facts, vs your fellow travellers’ content-free “But, Hamas!” caterwauling.
I thought you were talking about a different instance where he was moderated more recently, but I see your ATMB thread is from 2021, so never mind.
Doesn’t read that way to me. Reads to me that he expects there to be criticism if it’s members of other groups.
There was a whole long thread on here objecting to that moderation of Banquet Bear. Didn’t succeed in getting it stopped; but it didn’t just slide by without reaction.
Also a very good, and entirely accurate, point.
The problem isn’t that one set of people has a legitimate claim to the land and the other set doesn’t. The problem is that both sets of people have a legitimate claim to the exact same land and, while many individuals on both sides are willing to live with each other, all too many of them are not.
I think it’s quite possible to troll about a subject one’s sincere about.
The line between that, and vehemently arguing for one’s cause, is somewhat blurry.
Well now that is tricky. Is cultural heritage by itself enough to give rise to a legitimate claim to the land? Or is this just another example of people colonizing first, claiming title later, not unlike how indigenous peoples have been deprived of their land I’m the Americas and elsewhere.
And of course, when indigenous peoples in the US seek to reclaim land that they haven’t even completely vacated, and arguably only lost (if at all) a couple hundred years ago, the official position of the US and state governments has typically been “Sorry, no. Even if you didn’t transfer ownership, you waited too long to bring a claim. Laches and all that.”
Which isn’t to say that such a response to allegedly dormant claims to land ownership is the appropriate response, just that such distant claims to ownership only seem to get traction when it’s about carving up the Levant for people who have much more recent history in Europe than anywhere else (not unlike, say, the people who colonized the Americas).
Now this is very clearly anti-Semitic erasure of Jewish indigenous identity, and you can fuck right off with that bullshit.
Even ignoring the Jewish people who stayed in Israel throughout history, [and despite the best efforts of the Crusaders (who probably came closest to fully wiping us out in our homeland), some Jews always remained] we were never allowed to become indigenous anywhere else, not without having our identity completely stripped away (and look up what happened to converted people in Iberia to see that even converting didn’t always work).
Fine, then fucking report it, you disingenuous fuck.
What good would THAT do? You’re allowed to be an anti-Semitic piece of shit in the Pit.