In the same sense that all White South Africans were free to vote and participate in the wonders of democracy, and Black South Africans had their own democracy in Bantustans.
If you were forcibly expelled from your home, and has lived as a refugee ever since, I’d say you do, yes.
How about this, to answer a question with a question: Why should Jews be allowed back to Israel? They left after the Second Temple was destroyed. Is it fair to readmit these folks to Israel yet to deny Palestinians, a good chunk of whom remember being expelled? It was only 1948…
The only thing the Palestinians have never liked is Israeli oppression. Polls conducted in the territories (google for cite) have shown that Palestinians admire Israel’s system of governance more than any other. Stories of cooperation in the Yishuv are all overwhelmingly positive; even during nationalist tensions during the Arab riots, there are many stories of Palestinians helping Jews avoid angry Arab mobs (many of them not Palestinian).
If two states are somehow negotiated such that there is true peace and return is worked out in some light, then okay, it’s a good stepping stone to a federation to enable all Palestinians to return. The latest UNRWA stats put the number of Palestinian refugees who were alive for al-Nakba, btw, at over 450,000.
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*Originally posted by Maalak * The vast majority of Arabs fled either voluntarily, or Some were forced out, when they violented resisted the establishment of the state of Israel. In this specific example, there was an unfortunate incident where people were killed after Arabs feigned surrender and they opened fire in return. But they certainly didn’t set out to massacre the resident population.
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Do you have a cite ? I have heard that clap trap before and as far as I can tell it is horse shit. All the evidence I have found supports the fact that they were under attack. The opening of Israeli records a few years ago put your legends to bed.
“In the opening pages of “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem”, Benny Morris offers the outlines of an overall answer: using a map that shows the 369 Arab towns and villages in Israel (within its 1949 borders), he lists, area by area, the reasons for the departure of the local population (9). In 45 cases he admits that he does not know. The inhabitants of the other 228 localities left under attack by Jewish troops, and in 41 cases they were expelled by military force. In 90 other localities, the Palestinians were in a state of panic following the fall of a neighbouring town or village, or for fear of an enemy attack, or because of rumours circulated by the Jewish army - particularly after the 9 April 1948 massacre of 250 inhabitants of Deir Yassin, where the news of the killings swept the country like wildfire.”
I agree that exageration and misrepresentation doesn’t help. Only problem is that you are the one repeating the propaganda. Every time I read one of these threads someone is matter of factly speaking of how the Palestinians abandonned thier homes and using it as a reason as to why they should not be allowed to return. It’s bullshit.
No doubt, however, let us also examine the characteristics of anti-Palestinian zealots who are quick to demonize an entire nation based on the actions of a few. I make no excuses for religious intolerance or extremism, be it the Palestinian fanatic of the day or the Israeli Kach members (or Kach supporters… who are arguably in the Knesset…)
It should be noted that while it’s ridiculous to say that Zionists planned the holocaust, there is evidence to suggest that various Zionists had opportunities to potentially alleviate Jewish suffering during the Holocaust but in a way that would not maximize the number of Jews that would end up in Palestine, and therefore refused. Not that I feel this is relevant in any way, because I’m sure you can go and find a flat-out lie on Palestinian Authority television without that much work. I just don’t blame all Palestinians for that.
I don’t “blame all Palestinians” nor do I consider myself an anti-Palestinian zealot… quite the contrary. I’m a strong supporter of a Palestinian state, but I also think they’ve been exploited by their own leadership and the rest of the Arabic world more than anything else. With radical reforms in their leadership and educational system a lasting peace can be established.
Erm OLAF is an independant body that investigates claims of finacial irregularities in the EU. Your article is not in the Jerusalem Post archives.
I know what the father of the house is, one of my ancestors was one, and it’s not Labours most senior MP, it’s their longest serving MP. He’s a crank, but does tha but there are far more antisemtic memebers of the American houses.
Yes, the cited case is one of the reasons why I reject the academic boycott.
At the end of the day I can tell that you are writing this from America and not Europe, because the picture your painting is far from the truth. Racism against Muslims is much more prevalent than antisemtism at this time.
Saying that the general oppoositon to the Israeli occupation in Europe is particularly high, it’s no more than in the rest of the world with the exception of the US. If you start with the premise that Israel cannot be in the wrong then of course you’re going to wonder why everyone is so annoyed with her. Why not take a long hard, unsentimental look at the actions of Israel rather than saying that the world must be against her?
For example 25% of the ISM are actually Jewish themselves andthat’s true of quite a few of Israel’s harshest critics (Steve Rose, Noam Chomsky)
Many people feel that Israel’s actions are analogous to the apparthid regime in South Africa, so was criticism of that regime racism against Boers?
Bugg, I think you’re discussing the Palestinians, who are not Israelis. As you say, they have no rights in Israel. Nor do they have rights in Jordan or any other Arab country. They’re refugees, and unfortunately nobody wants them.
However, Israel has lots of Arab citizens, who have full rights to vote, own property, serve in government, etc. Arab citizens of Israel have more rights and civil liberties than Arab citizens of most Arab countries.
Israel was formed in 1948 by the United Nations. It was immidiately attacked by a coalition of Arab countries to attempted to destroy it. These countries attacked Israel again and again. Many or most still have not formally recognized Israel’s existance.
In short, Arab opposition to Israel’s existance predated any sort of Israeli oppression.
Furthermore, Arab oppression of other Arabs has been far worse than Israeli oppression of Arabs. Saddam Hussein and Hafez al Assad killed and tortured far more Arabs than Israel ever did.
Do you consider a joke about Jews hostile? Discriminative? Does making a joke make one anti - semitic ?
-Depends on the joke, doesn’t it? But even “positive” jokes play on stereotypes.
Do you consider hostility towards Israel to be hostile towards Jews ?
-Depends on what motivates the hostility. I am reluctant to make that accusation because I do not know another’s motivations, but, given the endemic nature of classic antisemitic beliefs and the inordinate one-sided nature of some anti-Israel views and the singling out of Israel for condemnation by some, well, sometimes one does suspect it. Most assuredly being anti-Israel is used as a cover for pernicious Jew hating by some.
If someone expresses disagreement with Jewish religious teachings, cultural influence or religious influence over politics is this hostile or discriminative ? Anti - semitic ?
-If by this you mean the classic “Jews have undue influence in …” the media, in business, in politics, etc … yes. That is classic hostile Jew hating. Can a mutually respectful debate regarding religious views be had? Of course.
Most importantly, does my support for Palestinian liberation cross that line?
-Again it depends on your motivations. I honestly haven’t paid enough attention to you to have an opinion about that.
Anti - semitism is an ugly word that gets thrown around alot by the pro - Israel people as a last resort. If you can’t win fairly just call them anti - semitic.
-Nah. I am sure that Jew-hating underpins a fair deal of anti-Israelism but such a charge is rarely made. Only when someone has made their motivations quite clear by such a degree of distortion and one-sidedness that no other possible explanation is reasonable.
Then you probably don’t pay much attention. Saudi Arabia is flamed down by essentially everybody when it’s mentionned in a thread on this board. The difference is that there’s nobody supporting their policies or arguing in their favor, so there’s no debate over it.
If someone opens a thread stating “SA is an evil country”, you have essentially a dozen “me too” posts following, then the thread dies. The only arguments I’ve noticed about SA is about technicalities concerning the education system, the business regulations, or the life of expats there, things like that. The result is totally different when a thread is opened about Israel because people strongly disagree on this topic.
Make a search with the words “Saudi Arabia” and then come back tell me whether or not this country is ever criticized.
So when can we expect the Canaanites, who were living in Canaan before the Jews came (before the Jews were Jews of course), to be given back their homeland? After all, they’ve been so oppressed they’ve been obliterated as an ethnic group. Maybe we can do so DNA testing and give them a rite of return…
Actually now that I think about it. Europeans weren’t colonizing Africa, they were merely going back to the God given homeland of Homo Sapiens…
If the IDF was slaughtering all the Arabs they could find, where did those million Arabs citizens of Israel come from? Fact is, Der Yassin was an outlier, which is why it gets so much attention. It was done by the Irgun before they came under the control of the Israeli army.
The fact that a great number of Arabs left Israel to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies is no myth, no matter how many times you repeat that lie. Sorry, won’t work.
I’m sure you maintain this level of outrage against the Czech Republic and against Poland for their actions against their German citizens after WW II, correct? And you fully support the repatriation of Jews to Hebron after the 1929 massacre led the British to evacuate the millenia-old Jewish community there?
And Hank, believe it or not, most countries have religious rites made into national policy. State churches abound. The US is the exception, not the rule. For you to take moral offense at one example of religion and government intermingling and not take it at any other country indicates that you have some bias here.
Broaden your scope from the SSDB. In the world at large, Saudi Arabia is considered to be perfectly fine, while Israel is the worst nation on the planet.
(Yes, there’s a bit of hyperbole there, but not much.)
**Originally posted by Hank Fescue:
Still throwing that pile of crap around ?
They left home because thier nieghbors army was slaughtering entire villages.
That legend was put to rest long ago. Give me a break.
Originally posted by JonBodner:
If the IDF was slaughtering all the Arabs they could find, where did those million Arabs citizens of Israel come from? Fact is, Der Yassin was an outlier, which is why it gets so much attention. It was done by the Irgun before they came under the control of the Israeli army.
The fact that a great number of Arabs left Israel to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies is no myth, no matter how many times you repeat that lie. Sorry, won’t work.
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There’s elements of truth to both. I’ve wondered about that myself…the best source of info imo are the UN documents themselves encompassing the first half of the 20th century, British Mandate Palestine. Arabs were rioting in protest of growing Jewish numbers since 1920; no one can reasonably claim they feared the Jews in 1929 - they targeted them. By '47 there were armed Jewish gangs running around which later became part of the fighting force of Israel - but a this moment they are still battling the British who administrate the country, and weapons are still hard to come by. The fact is that whole villages were not being slaughtered, except for that one which raised the ire of Arabs, British, and Jewish alike. I’m positive that many Arabs were fleeing for their lives then, in the outlying areas, and that Jewish terrorist groups helped it along with propaganda and/or sporadic attacks. But in the cities, thriving areas populated by both Jews and Arabs, the loss of the Arabs from the cities was not beneficial at all to the Jews…it makes more sense that Arabs up and left rather than submit to Jewish control of those areas. That happened elsewhere in the 40’s too - in France for example when the Allies were fighting the Germans. Rather than fearing imminent slaughter in a personal sense, they were fleeing the growing specter of German occupation. I am positive that the outside Arab propanganda contributed to the exodus of Arabs from Palestine cities. The fact that more stayed than left is evidence against a massive effort to remove them, from inside.
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*Originally posted by JonBodner *
**If the IDF was slaughtering all the Arabs they could find, where did those million Arabs citizens of Israel come from? Fact is, Der Yassin was an outlier, which is why it gets so much attention. It was done by the Irgun before they came under the control of the Israeli army.
The fact that a great number of Arabs left Israel to get out of the way of the invading Arab armies is no myth, no matter how many times you repeat that lie. Sorry, won’t work.**
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From all research done since the opening of Israels own archives, the majority of Arabs fled under attack or threat of eminent attack. Although no one has been able to produce any of the so called orders to flee by the Arab armies and no one can produce the supposed Arabic radio bradcast for such, what has been produced is the documented intentions of Israel to cause as much panic and fear as possible so the Arabs would flee. I posted a paragraph of two from one investigation and there are many many more that support the conclusion based on facts and conclussions. I have presented my evidence. Do you have any ?
[QUOTE] I’m sure you maintain this level of outrage against the Czech Republic and against Poland for their actions against their German citizens after WW II, correct? And you fully support the repatriation of Jews to Hebron after the 1929 massacre led the British to evacuate the millenia-old Jewish community there?
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Why can’t we have a discussion of Israel without this clap trap ? This thread is about anti - semitism. If you want to have a debate about the Czech Republic then do so. And outrage ? I am not outraged by any means. I do have a sense of fair play though.
Moral offense ? What the hell are you talking about ? I never said I was offended in any way by this fact. It is just a fact bearing on immigration amoungst other things in Israel.
And there you go with the “why don’t you take offense at other countries ?”. Maybe I do man. Did you ask ? Nah. You just make gross assumptions to suit yourself. Let me say again, if you want to talk about another country or people, start a discussion. That would be off topic here. Thats why threads here have titles. Helps keep debate focused. Try to focus.
Sam Stone accused me of anti - semitism right here for suggesting that Israel be invaded rather than Iraq. He withdrew the accusation later. It’s a knee jerk thing and it happens all the time. My concern with Israel lies in its WMD capability. They do have them and lots of them, unlike the nieghboring countries. At the time it made sense to me that if we are on a hunt for WMDs in the hands of people who have committed attrocities then Israel would be a good starting point in the middle easts. Makes at least as much sense as invading Iraq to get the WMDs. But anti - semitic gets thrown in. My motivations are quite clear about Israel, they have caused the displacement of alot of people and they have shirked any responsibility for the lives destroyed. What the hell does that have to do with being Jewish ?
Scroll down to “Encouragement by Arab Leaders and Rumors”, where quotes from Time, the Economist, the head of the British Middle East Office, secretary of the Arab League Office in London, and others prove this to be true.
Tee, what are you doing putting a balanced post into this thread? Have you no shame?
Hank, I recall seeing your post about that incident now that you mention it. I gotta say that I somewhat excuse Sam’s comment as one is at a loss as to how to react to such a … an unusual concept. He retracted his accusation when it was clear that while bizzare, your motivations were not explicitly antisemitic. Does one incident of a mispercieved intent make for “knee jerk” reactions that “happen all the time” when pro-Israeli posters are “unable to win” arguments? I have seen a small handful of such accusations made in all my time reading these threads and most often those accused clearly were hateful and were soon banned. And each time such an accusation was made there was a chorus of those of similar mind to you yelling foul for playing “the antisemitism card”. Interestingly, around that same time I was called racist for having pro-Israeli beliefs. The same posters who yelled foul about the antisemite accusation were eerily quiet. Odd that. And if I recall your thread about the incident with Sam you were unable to provide evidence for many more than Sam’s one offense. Give it up man, let it go. He retracted it and it is not a common tactic, certainly the accusation is made much less often that it probably deserves to be given the figures cited earlier in this thread about the frequency of strongly held antisemitic beliefs in both Europe and the US. I don’t usually make it not because I do not suspect that it motivates some, but because I do not know so, and because I think it is usually appparent to others by the vaucousness of the posters comments. I prefer to merely point out the illogic or falsehood of the statements and let others come to their own conclusions.
Did you even read this cite ? While it does support that there were instances of encouragement by Arab leaders the report taken in its entirity does not support your assertions. Lets take a look.
Seems some did leave voluntarily but a significant number were forcibly removed. Lets see what the Israel leaders in your cite had to say.
Now there is a noble idea. Just single them out and don’t give them a means to survive. What a guy.
WOW ! How about that ? No other solution but to rid our country of the Arabs. Not a single village or tribe should be left, he says.
A list ? Sounds like a plan to me.
Here is the recognization that they should get them out while they could lest peace and fair play foil the plan.
And you gave me this cite to support your argument ?
No records of Arab leaders calling for Arabs to flee, just some rumors but lots and lots of actual documented records of Israeli leaders scheming to remove the Arab population.
I am not sure what you mean by “let it go”. If you mean I shouldn’t hold this against Sam then, yes, I have.
I never started any thread about the accusation. I was offended by it and when pointed out Sam retracted the remark. So be it.
I only mentioned the incident again when someone here challenged “show me one incident where someone on this board was called anti - semitic for comments about Israel” or some such. So I showed them. Same thing here. I will continue to use the example whenever the claim that " no one is ever called anti - semitic for criticizing Israel" is presented. It does happen. Happened to me.
I did read the cited page. A very fair even handed recapitulation of the history. Documents well that one factor involved in the flight of Arabs was encouragement by Arab leadership. That another was percieved fear, and another was fear based on incidents of real violence although
This was not a planned public policy. The authors also note
And of course documents that the same type of expulsion, confiscation etc occurred to Jews in Arab areas without exception. Now if you read that cite and want to take bits that only support what you want to see go ahead, but such a tactic does make one suspect that your motivations are not ones of actually understanding the truth.
