Do God and evil co-exist?

In the most recent thread about the ontolotical argument (more precisely, it is about the modal ontological proof), Ludovic brought something up:

I think this is an excellent point, and in the past, I’ve not addressed it simply because it distracts from any discussion of the MOP itself. But I think this is a good time, since by and large most people are pretty well set on what they think about the MOP, to open a discussion about this other point in particular. Given that God is proved to exist, is He as evil as He is good?

The premise is simple, and Ludovic has outlined it cogently. If God indeed exists necessarily, then all existence is in fact contingent on His. No one will deny that evil exists. Therefore, evil exists because God does. There is no escaping the fact that that indicts God as not only the Creator of evil, but the Sustainer of it.

Since the debate about the MOP is headed in its umpteenth circle, I think it’s a good time to discuss something that is at the root of practically all philosophy, both theological and non; namely, the debate between existentialism and essentialism — because, honestly, there is no philosophical controversy that cannot be traced to this: which came first, existence or essence? It is one thing to prove the existence of God as a being so supreme that He cannot not exist, but what is His essence?

Getting back to our argument that God must sustain evil, I stated one premise almost as an after-thought. Very few people these days, because of the pervasiveness and profound influence of existentialism, would even have paused at the statement, “No one will deny that evil exists”. Certainly, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and most theists of almost every stripe believe that it does. So do most materialists, for that matter — particularly hard atheists. After all, many use the existence of evil as an argument that God does not exist, at least not a perfectly good God.

At the core of the dispute surrounding the title of this thread is whether evil does exist. And as far as I am concerned, if it does, then God cannot be good. Fortunately for me, I suppose, I am most persuaded by the argument that it does not. But then, I’m not an existentialist. See, the thing is this: by refusing to take as axiomatic that existence preceeds essence, I am not required to acknowledge the existence of something whose essence I can perceive. Despite that, I AM required to acknowledge that that essence, though nonexistent, is perceivable by things (like me) that do exist.

Before you shut me down and declare that this is yet another one of those weird things that Lib goes on about, please consider that exactly what I’m describing is quite commonplace, even given today’s utter saturation of existentialism. People still define, classify, and examine things in essentialist terms and with essentialist views. Science especially.

Science doesn’t really dwell much on the ontological aspect of things. It doesn’t wonder whether things exist; it just examines things that are there — like light, and gravity, and evolution. And when it does this, it is making a decidedly anti-existentialist (or essentialist) commitment. It studies light. Electromagnetism. It doesn’t study darkness. It studies heavenly bodies. Mass. It doesn’t study empty space. (In fact, it has determined that there might not be any.) And it studies evolution. Natural selection. It doesn’t study what is NOT at work driving the ascent of species; it studies what IS at work. Science acknowledges that a thing — like darkness, or nothingness, or emptiness — can have essence while not itself existing. Wherever there is the oscillation of energy, there is light. Wherever there is not, there is darkness.

The question, then, is whether evil can successfully be defined this way, and I believe it can. And I don’t mean anything so cheesy as “the absence of goodness” although, in the end, that’s what it will boil down to. I mean that a logically consistent case can be made that goodness exists but that evil has only essence. In fact, I believe that it must be made and that the alternative makes no sense. But the point cannot be made so bluntly and a priori because it might not be clear at face value whether even the essence of evil is logically allowable in the context of not only a good God, but an omnibenevolent one. (At last, an omni-word for those who have demanded it.)

For examining something like this, I like the scientific, or inductive approach. We really can’t say that darkness is a nonexistent thing with only essence until we actually understand the nature of light. It isn’t until we attenuate our perception of light that a right perception of darkness arises. Once we know that light is the oscillation of energy (and please, however oversimplified that phrase might be, that’s the gist of it and it is sufficient for our discussion), then we appreciate that there is no such thing as the oscillation of nothing. Darkness does not arise because of subatomic particles emitting darktons. Darkness arises because of insufficient light. The essence of light preceded the existence of light. There had to be a principle by which light could arise before it did indeed arise. And science is in the process of studying that phenomenon. Although we do not know the cause of quantum fluctuations and the collapse of electron clouds (or even if there IS a cause), we do know what happens. The modus tollens applies here: if these fluctuations did not happen, there would be no light.

Since we’re talking about an allegedly omnibenevolent God, it seems to me that the place we ought to start looking is morality — specifically, goodness. The definition is critical here, just as it is with light. If light were just the absence of darkness, we would demand to examine the darktons and to do double-split experiments with whatever it is that oscillates to produce darkness. It makes sense to me to posit the essence of an omnibenevolent God as being, well, benevolence. Goodness. That means that, were there no goodness, there would be no God. For whoever is willing to examine this question, it is necessary to be willing to accept that, given sufficient reason, it must be conceded that there is no God.

So, what is goodness? Based on what we’ve just said, it seems to me that goodness is an aesthetic. It is something that is VALUED by God. It is something that is so essential to Him that His own existence, though contingent on nothing ontologically, is impossible without it. Inasmuch as Ludivic has kindly granted that God indeed exists (at least for purposes of this discussion) necessarily, we don’t have to concern ourselves with whether He might not. And since He does, so does goodness. That is, if He exists and values goodness above all else, then goodness must also exist — otherwise, there is nothing to value.

Now, we have that goodness exists and is an aesthetic. So what is evil? In the spirit of covering our bases as we said before, and not leaving loose ends, it’s important to discuss goodness just a bit more before discussing evil. Knowing that light is a photon is nice, but without knowing how that photon arises, we really can’t say much about darkness other than that it is the absence of light. In that same way, it is important to know why goodness is so valuable and how it is manifested into existence.

Strangely, perhaps, not a whole lot has been written in philosophy about aesthetics. With the notable exception of Schopenhauer and a couple of others, it has always taken a back seat to its cousins, metaphysics and ethics. But an aesthetic can be something so galvanizing that otherwise reasonable people are moved to utterly unreasonable behavior. Falling head over heels in love with that special person so much so that you lose all sense of time and space. Reading that poem or that verse that so inspires you that your whole life changes in the blink of an eye. Even little tiny aesthetics can have a profound effect. A certain scent that brings memories rushing through the brain. A painting that makes you gasp.

One reason a lot of philosophers have shied away from serious treatments of aesthetics is that it is enormously subjective, and philosophers since Aristotle have prized precision and reasonableness. But aesthetics doesn’t lend itself so well to that sort of examination. Nevertheless, its influence is so great that Schopenauer was moved to posit a ubiquitous and horrible Will whose sole purpose is to ensure our misery, from which, only aesthetics can give us temporary relief. Nietzsche took this even further, and posited reality itself as a terrible joke — an illusion. Hegel, possibly the last great essentialist before the arrival of Plantinga, almost seems to have given up, by relegating aesthetics to the clinically noncomittal status of being on every level nothing more than the interpretation of “the Symbol”.

But the fact is that what most of us live for is our aesthetics. What concerns us is what makes us happy. (This includes people who, like Schopenhauer, aren’t happy unless they’re miserable.) Whatever it is that people pursue — wealth, soulmates, work, debate on the SDMB — they do it because it makes them happy. (That doesn’t necessarily mean that obtaining that which they pursue will keep them happy. Some people just like the pursuit itself.) We make our choices based on what we think will make us happy. (There are lots of interesting asides here, like the Buddhist notion that desire is the source of misery.) And despite that not much is written about the topic directly, our aesthetics permeate and govern our lives. Crimes are defined by them. Criminals molest kids or rape women or murder their spouses because they believe they will be happier when they do. Relationships are defined by them. Attraction is a prerequisite to romantic communication. Without droning on forever about it, suffice it to say that what an aesthetic DOES is make someone happy.

So, what is it about goodness that makes God happy? That’s actually a pretty easy question to answer, since the context is clearly morality and God is benevolent. Goodness morally edifies. Just as energy builds a universe, goodness builds a moral context. If you think of the universe as a probability distribution, you can think of morality as an ethical distribution. But there is an essential difference — the probability distribution is entirely objective, and the ethical distribution is entirely subjective. In other words, the particles will do what they may, whereas the moral fiber will be woven in whatever way moral agents weave them. There is nothing guiding the universe to some compelling purpose; but morality clearly is driven by the will of those who exercise it. Without man’s perception of ethics, the universe in and of itself is amoral. Not immoral. Amoral in the sense of being unconcerned with morality. Atoms are neither good nor evil.

Because goodness is an aesthetic, because it morally edifies, and because it is subjectively evaluated, it is necessary that an agent must be free to decide for himself its exact aesthetic value. It cannot be forced upon someone because then it would contravene the whole point of an aesthetic. You might like asparagus, but shoving it down my throat and telling me how great it is will not convert me to your point of view. Free will is a necessary component for honest aesthetic evaluation.

But how is goodness conveyed and perceived? Just as the senses perceive the universe, there must be some way for goodness to be perceived. And just as fields provide a mechanism by which the energy that the universe is made of moves from place to place, so must there be a mechanism by which goodness moves from agent to agent. I call the sense that perceives goodness “truth”, and I call the mechanism by which goodness is conveyed “love”. Thus, when one moral agent shares the aesthetic, goodness, with another moral agent, it is an act of love. There are many analogies in everyday life. It is quite typical that the only thing that makes you happier than your favorite aesthetic is sharing that happiness with someone else who values it as much as you. People like to share what they believe is beautiful. Love is the mechanism by which goodness is shared with others who value goodness. Truth is the means by which they recognize what they perceive.

And now we can talk about evil. If love is the conduit of goodness, then it makes sense to me to call the obstruction of goodness “sin”. That means that love and sin are opposites. Clearly, nothing I’m writing here is necessarily the viewpoint of mainstream Christianity or the politicians of Christendom. But I don’t claim they are, so that’s beside the point. I’m not talking about sin in the conventional sense of disobeying proscribed rules. I’m talking about sin in the sense of making a moral decision to obstruct the facilitation of God’s most valued aesthetic. There is nothing in this that declares, for example, that homosexuality is a sin. As a matter of fact, homosexual acts can be the most loving of acts whenever they serve to facilitate moral edification. Sin is a moral decision, just as love is. God, as a morally perfect being, always decides freely to love. Not because He has to, but because He wants to — He greatly values goodness. He values it above all else.

Now, with all this contextualized, it is easy to see how evil can be said not to exist at all. Just as opaque walls can obstruct light such that a room is completely dark, so can moral decisions obstruct goodness such that a heart is completely evil. If God were the only free moral agent, we could pin evil on Him. But since we are empowered agents whose free will is not trumped even by His own, and since He does not sin, the problem of evil falls squarely on us. Were we all always to edify one another and to facilitate goodness, there would be no evil. And since love is the activity of a moral agent, goodness is that which exists and evil is merely that which is absent wherever goodness abides.

That’s how I see it. And that’s why I do not believe that God and evil co-exist. Only one of them exists. The other is merely the essence of moral emptiness.

Those things that science studies, light, mass, etc… are all demonstably part of the real physical universe (I know you deny the reality of the physical but most people, even most theists, are materialists in some sense so hear me out). “Goodness”, has never been measured and cannot be said to be “real” in quite the same sense as, say, the recently discovered 10th planet - assuming they got it right :wink:

On another note: We have the idea of a hell-world. In this world, certainly a possible world, there are only the tormented who are powerless to free themselves and their “evil” (or not-good if you like) tormenters. So God can’t violate the tormenters free will and force them to stop. He could, however, create a being that was neither a tormenter or a victim, call it an angel, and send it into that world to have a nice little chat with the tormenters and maybe get them, through their own free will, to stop being so “evil”. But we can imagine that he does not, of course. So a world where he does not is possible. Thus Ludovic’s ponit is proven yet again. I am reminded of one of Asimov’s laws of robotics - “no robot may harm a human, or through inaction allow harm to come to a human” Surely, God should do better than a robot.

Of course, as a hard core materialist I don’t buy into the terminology. Free will is an artifact of the brain, “good” and “evil” are subjective value judgements. Yeah, it’s all just the usual scientific materialism but that’s my philosophical bias.

hmmmm, i had a good post but the hamsters ate it. I’ll give you the condensed version.

In my informal proof, I was using “evil” as an adjective, not an entity. Even given that “good” is “that which is valued most by God”, I do not believe that there is anything special about the adjective “good” which would enable you to touch it or feel it any more so than “Evil”.

More formally speaking, both of them are merely functions that can be applied to entities to retrieve the truth value with regards to that adjective. And to whatever extent the function good() exists, the function evil() exists too.

That last line is where I don’t agree with you. Even given that God exists and is, by definition, good, there is no reason that good and evil cannot be objective. That remains to be shown. Even God could be an automaton.

both of these still remain to be shown. I would vehemently disagree that there definitely is something guiding the universe to a compelling purpose, but by the same token, it is possible that there is, for instance, a deistic clockmaker God.

I have not constructed a goodness() function myself, but considering that your take is that goodness is an aesthetic, it would appear that it would be even easier to develop one than without assuming that. After all, you could develop an aesthetic function for phtography that gave more points to objects not placed directly in the center, etc., why not for goodness?

Nobody ever said the world was a moral agent, any more than a gun is a moral agent. But that doesn’t mean that either can’t be used for evil by someone capable of weilding it.
If God creates a world that proceeds to cause innocent people infinite pain for eternity, then he is evil.

There wouldn’t even have to be a middleman. God could directly create immortal people on a planet constantly bombarded with “pain rays” that leave them convulsing in pain forever.
If your idea of God exists, then he has done just that in a possible world.

Luckily for us all, your God does not exist. Being consistent with “pain ray” hell-worlds does not make a being greater in a non-ontological sense. Thank God.

God and Evil coexist in the same manner that a sea anomone and a clownfish coexist. You pick which is the predator and which is the, ummm, “comic relief decoy.”

It seems your characterisation of science is wrong. Science neither study nor acknowledge anything that does not exist. Science acknowledges darkness because darkness is a state where you have no photon. Darkness is not the opposite of light, darkness forms one end of the “lightness” spectrum.

I think it’s an intellectual box that people get sucked into. That’s the point of the Garden of Eden story IMO, getting sucked into an intellectual mindfuck. The knowledge of Good and Evil, the reason we are taken from Paradise is because we believe there is a difference. I do not believe in Evil, Death, Darkness, Nothing, Void, Empty Space or anything that implies some sort of opposition to existance. They are purely conceptual, fun games to toy with, and useful tools as binary code requires an off as well as an on, so it requires opposition to create the dualistic existance that provides form, but I think that Good and Evil are merely aesthetic distinctions. If one does not wish to undergo the form transmutation that we refer to as “death” then anything that would bring them to death would be inherently “evil”

It’s all a matter of desire. So I think you were spot on when you were referring to Aesthetics. I think that logic and rationalism are aesthetics themselves, and that there is no such thing as reason outside of the aesthetics that it provides. To claim some sort of objectivity is to say that what you are saying is not only true for you but it is true for everyone, which you can say if you wish, I don’t believe it to be so. The point of subjectivity is that you are viewing it from a perspective. We all are viewing everything from a perspective, so to claim objectivity merely destroys and useful meaning and purpose in having two seperate words in ‘subjectivity’ and ‘objectivity’.

It’s like the inherent hypocrisy/paradox in the idea of transcending desire/ego. If you are attempting to do such a thing then you are following your desires, pursuing an aesthetic principle in the vain hope that it will bring you to some sort of objectivity.

Arithmetic while being internally logically consistent because that is the aesthetic it is designed to be, is no more the objective than a created faeryland which rules and laws might be completely internally consistent as well. They are both just views of that objective, the aesthetics we apply to the ineffable that we are viewing subjectively. The root of the word objective is ‘object’ so that means it is the thing we are discussing. The opinion being discussed is the ‘subject’. So when we express ourselves it is completely subjective no matter how much we’d like other people to think we are more reasonable, rational and logical than the next person. I think that the idea of reason and logic is pure egomania, not that there is anything wrong with said egomania, but it doesn’t make what is being said anymore true than what someone else says.

So the idea of Good and Evil is purely subjective, and what is evil for you may very well be evil for you, but it isn’t for me, and you can expect your laws to apply to me, but I’m not going to follow them, because the thing is not evil for me from my subjective point of view.

All this leads me to believe that perhaps things that people find to be evil, are not dangerous to me, as Good and Evil merely represents an aesthetic value judgement in order to differentiate one object from another, even though it is all part of the universal cosmic whole, the singularity which we have more difficulty conceiving of than the infinite or even nothingness. However, there is the chance that I am incorrect, and that all the warnings I have received about toying with evil are true, in which case my immortal soul is destroyed utterly, which from another point of view could be that I assimilated with God and attained Buddha conciousness, because is there really a difference between complete destruction and assimilation by the divine/singularity? Does God ever change in essence or is the perception of change just a realignment of an incomplete view of the whole to begin with? Perhaps we did not gauge what the essence truly was, and perceive a change when no change really occured.

We can intellectualize and philosophize into eternity, which is more or less what we are doing, and it doesn’t change what the thing is, merely how we perceive it, and our desire to perceive it is led by our passions, and not some higher goal guiding us, unless of course you realize that our passions are part of the singularity, in which case there is a divine will that we cannot escape.

Do not Qabbalists and many other stories such as Icarus describe the plight of those that come closer to the light than they are capable of? In that case wouldn’t that make the light what is evil and not the darkness or the matter? Lucifer is the lightbringer after all, he gave man fire, which man has used to destroy and create for all of our existance, which could be only a few thousand years since we evolved from Monkeys or maybe we are God, and we are eternal and that is all there is to it. Maybe God didn’t create us at all, maybe we are God and we are his image.

Pick an aesthetic, run with it and enjoy yourself, heaven is yours should you choose to accept it, this message will self-destruct on December 21st 2012 the point at which the Mayans predict that the infinitely recursive asymptotic golden spiral that is time will end.

Erek

Here are God’s choices when faced with rebellion:

Kill the rebels.
Reprogram the rebels.
Unmake the rebels.
Make a universe where the rebels could not have existed in the first place.
Permit some measure of freedom, which means that the rebels can exist and still rebel.

Only one response is loving. The rest are hateful.

(Bolding mine.) If I may politely ask a favour of you, friend, would you mind using the word physicalist in place of this rather old-fashioned term? Clearly, even if one denies all things metaphysical, then more than mere “material” still exists, such as energy, fundamental forces and spacetime.

Following from this, as a physicalist I contend that evil exists solely as a physical entity; a sound/symbol associated with behaviour which causes suffering (or some alternative, but equally clearly physical, definition). Similarly, God exists solely as a word/symbol describing an imaginary concept, rather like “invisible man” (invisible things exist as both imaginary and real entities, men exist as both imaginary and real entities, but invisible men have solely imaginary existence.)

Since “science” can only examine the physical, ie. it follows a solely epistemic modality, I venture that it is valid to hold that science is a physicalist epistemology. It may, for convenience, use metaphysical language occasionally, but it surely cannot examine metaphysical claims without somehow “translating” them into purely physical entities.

No, a physicalist would not deny the existence of “darkness”, or “nothingness”, or indeed anything traditionally held to be metaphysical by nature (at least, not mainstream “supervenience” physicalists - eliminativists might, but their viewpoint is not well accepted). They would simply hold that it exists solely as a concept, a “pattern of neuron fire”, an “arrangement of spacetime” if you will. But exist it very definitely does: real things and imaginary things both supervene on the physical. There is no escape from existentialism here.

So, it is entirely valid to stop you part way into your OP and point out that all this talk of God and good and evil might be mere neuroscience, that nothing metaphysical exists, and that ontology is but a big bunch of hooey (even though a satisfactory explanation for every “gap” inherent in such a hypothesis has not yet been falsifiably demonstrated; that the thesis is logically consistent will have to do until all such gaps have been filled).

However, carrying on with your OP and tackling the problem of evil, one could certainly contend that good is merely the absence of evil; that good does not exist even if evil does. And I have opined many times that Necessary Existence is the only truth in every possible world. Call this “God” if you must, but here is a list of some possible worlds:[ul][li]God is Evil incarnate.[/li][li]God is omniscient but not omnipotent - the “wise weakling”.[/li][li]God is omnipotent but not omniscient - the “powerful idiot”.[/li][li]God is neither very clever or very powerful at all.[/li][li]God’s sole characteristic is Necessary Existence.[/ul]Since you have no justification for removing the possible worlds wherein God is evil, and good is merely evil’s absence, this “omnibenevolence” you speak of is as arbitrary a description of God as saying that it is impossible for Him not to like jazz.[/li]
In summary, even if I were not the physicalist I avowedly am, you could not convince me that a good being is in any way superior, better, greater or more supreme than an evil one. You know that I respect the logical consistency of your worldview with every dendrite in my cranial offal, Lib, and I hope that your assignation of these various characteristics to God brings you peace. But I still consider them arbitrary and wonder whether this thread is, at heart, actually “IMHO” material.

I don’t understand why anyone needs to give “existance” to evil.
Evil is not a “thing” that can be defined or a “philosophy” to be furthered. It is a result of an intentional action. Whether an action is considered “good” or “evil” is based on the intent.
If a tree falls over in a wind and crushes a baby sitting below it, that is not in itself “evil” though it is a tragedy. If it is cut down and falls on that same child, it still is not “evil” if the babies injury was not the intent of the woodsman. If however someone cuts down the tree with the INTENTION of crushing the child, then it IS an evil act.
That evil though does not come from God or from Satan or whomever else people like to blame. It was generated in the person who cut down the tree and is a direct result of “free will”.
God didn’t create evil, we did.

sorry, I meant to add…

God didn’t create evil, we did. And we recreate it everytime we act on a decision we know to be harmful.

Doesn’t matter. God is there, watching the whole thing, doing nothing to stop it. That makes him evil.

Ditto w/r/t good.

The problem is, if all that we know about God is that it exists, then there is at least one possible world in which God intentionally crushes the child with a tree. Unless, of course you define “good” so that killing the child is “good” in that world.

Which one is loving? It is not obvious to me.

In Qabbalah it says not to define God because God is the ultimate singularity, that to define it one does not understand it’s nature because it is beyond all definition, to give it a name means that two things exist, the thing, and the term that describes the thing. So to say whether he is good or evil or even neutral is to not truly understand what God is. In the end it’s all intellectual games, you either get it or you don’t, there is nothing to understand.

On Metaphysical vs Physical, if the Metaphysical connections are obvious to you as to what the manifestation in the physical takes place, then they are themselves physical and cease to be metaphysical. So whether or not there is a physical and a metaphysical depends upon your ability to perceive the forces that make up your universe.

Erek

Whenever anyone speaks the opposite is also implied in their statement. So that is the essence of the dualism, but there is no dualism, you are just perceiving two mirror images of the same sentiment.

Rebellion implies something to rebel against, hence, an imperfect universe. Since an omnibenevolent God would not create an imperfect universe, the loving response must be:

I think it’s an open ended question. I can see a couple of different answers depending on how one looks at things.

acuatally it’s not a question at all:smack:

dang my correction needs a correction. There should be a fellow smacing himself in head at the end.