Do kids have a lot more homework now than 20 years ago?

[2ManyTacos]

22 year old guy here, didn’t go to school in the 1980’s, spent most of my K-12 years in the period between 2000-2009…

Ok, before I get to the crux of the question…how the FUCK can a teenage kid get to fucking driving age without being able to sign his name? I’m sorry, but that’s just inexcusable and a downright failing aspect of current education regimes.

Now, at this point in my life, I don’t remember one iota of cursive handwriting (because - shocker! - I’ve never had to use it) but I can still clearly sign my name on an official document or check when I need to. Yes, most of the time (such as when signing a receipt or something) my signature is little more that scribbles that VAGUELY make out my name, but that tendency only ever arose as I got older and realized that nobody really cares about the legibility of signatures so long as the first few letters are clearly visible. Still, when doing something more important - such as when signing a document or endorsing a check - I’ll take the time to clearly sign each letter of my name, and I face no difficulty in doing so. Being able to present a legible signature is a fucking LIFE SKILL and not having that is downright embarrassing.

Now, cursive in general is useless to me personally in all other situations; I’ve got absolutely gorgeous print handwriting (think a cross between Times New Roman & Comic Sans and that’s what my printing tends to resemble), so I’ve always just stuck with that. I THINK that I was taught cursive in the 3rd grade - which would have been 1998-1999ish - but aside from a wicked English teacher I had in the eighth grade who mandated cursive writing, I’ve never had to use it beyond that initial get-go and so now I don’t remember any of it at all beyond the quintessential signature.

Anyways…

Yes, homework for kids nowadays is terrible. I graduated from high school in 2009, and really from 10th-12th grade the homework load got absolutely brutal for me. I think a lot of this escalation in HW - at least in the high school level - really has to do with the introduction of the AP Program and the consequent rush by teachers to funnel as many kids into Advanced Placement as possible so that their schools can get more money. From what I understand, this program (or anything like it, really) didn’t even exist when my parents were still in school, so that fact by itself lends credence to the homework escalation conviction.

In my own case, grade 10 was particularly awful for me, not SOLELY due to all the stupid homework (I was going through some SERIOUS family upheavals at the same time) but certainly exacerbated because of it. Basically, that year saw me pulling in 5-6 hours of homework EVERY NIGHT (including most weekends), and I’m sorry, but when a kid is going to school 8 hours a day just to get 6 hours of HW after that then I just can’t conceive of any possible justification. Worst year of my life, to be sure.

I ratcheted things down a bit in the 11th & 12th grades, and though those years still sucked as well they certainly weren’t as shitty as grade 10.

It’s funny, I don’t really remember experiencing any grief in my middle school years (aside from sixth grade anyway), but I do have some distinct crushing memories of homework overload in my elementary school years. Fun times.:smack:

[even_sven]

@bump

In theory that’s great, but taking a kid who’s not prepared for college due to systemic school failure, even if they’re in the top 8% of their class and dropping them in Austin in the Fall may be an opportunity for college, but one they’re unlikely to succeed in. They’d probably be much better served to go to say… one of the DCCCD schools for a couple of years and transferring into a 4 year college afterward, just like that kid from Westlake would be better off in College Station instead of having to go to UTA or A&M-Commerce.

Actually, the research shows that undershooting when it comes to college is associated with poor outcomes for low income and disadvantaged students. It’s actually going to community college that’s associated with high drop out rates and poor grades for these kids. Students from stable college educated families thrive in community college, where they benefit from family support. But first generation students thrive in settings where their peers are bright and college savvy, and where the expectations are high. Our colleges could do a better job providing supports for these students (just like they have support for transfer, disabled, and older students) but a strong four year school is statistically the best place for bright but disadvantaged kids.

[MandaJo]

@bump

In theory that’s great, but taking a kid who’s not prepared for college due to systemic school failure, even if they’re in the top 8% of their class and dropping them in Austin in the Fall may be an opportunity for college, but one they’re unlikely to succeed in. They’d probably be much better served to go to say… one of the DCCCD schools for a couple of years and transferring into a 4 year college afterward, just like that kid from Westlake would be better off in College Station instead of having to go to UTA or A&M-Commerce.

I am going to back up with what even sven says above. These kids generally do fine once they reach Austin, if they have the funds to stay. I mean, hell, the top kid from Samuell last year is a Stanford, actually, and AFAIK is doing fine. Even in “bad” schools the top kids are dedicated and hard-working: they are the very kids who will work their butts off to catch up, even they are given time and space to do so.

If a kid is so tops academically that he will actually benefit more from UT than UTA right from the start, he’s going to have many other fantastic options. But that’s not why kids get mad that they can’t go to UT right away when they feel like they “deserve” it. They want to go rush, and go to football games, and 6th street, and live at Towers and have “the experience”.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@2ManyTacos

Ok, before I get to the crux of the question…how the FUCK can a teenage kid get to fucking driving age without being able to sign his name? I’m sorry, but that’s just inexcusable and a downright failing aspect of current education regimes.

I’d be interested in your answer to the question. How many hours of instruction in other, more useful areas should be sacrificed so that kids can learn a signature?

For reference, I’m doing the bare minimum I think I can get away with to teach third graders cursive, and it’s about half an hour a week. So figure on about 18 hours of instructional time to teach a bare minimum of cursive; probably 50 hours or so would be more realistic, and significantly more if you want them to be proficient in cursive. Are you good with spending 50 hours of every child’s life learning an outdated tradition so that we can continue having cursive signatures in the US?

[JohnT]

Sure, why not? They’ll spend far more of their time playing video games, goofing off, etc. You’re seriously arguing that learning to write is a waste of time?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@JohnT

Sure, why not? They’ll spend far more of their time playing video games, goofing off, etc. You’re seriously arguing that learning to write is a waste of time?

I’m arguing the same thing I argue whenever a bureaucrat comes up with yet another initiative for a classroom they have not set foot in: it isn’t the BEST use of time.

Of course I am talking about cursive, not writing: I would far rather the time spent teaching cursive be spent teaching students how to build a cogent argument, for example.

[wake_turbulence]

@Macca26

Every AP class assigned a minimum of 1 hour of homework a night. Most days someone would come in talking about how they fell asleep on their textbook last night.

One of my colleagues who has high-school age kids mentioned to me that he’s heard through his kids that the use of meth and cocaine is rampant amongst the kids in AP classes for just that reason.

[Octarine]

As a person currently in K-12 school right now, I think the amount of homework is insane. But then, I have a feeling that this might be what all kids from whatever time would say.
It only takes time to do if you want to do it well. It’s pretty fast to just do the minimum - but then that time you saved is spent studying for the test based on all the homework. Some classes are more brutal than others, and some teachers are more lax about checking you’ve done it. I’ve often told people that I’d rather extend the school day one, two or even three hours in exchange for having no homework.

[Jragon]

@wake_turbulence

One of my colleagues who has high-school age kids mentioned to me that he’s heard through his kids that the use of meth and cocaine is rampant amongst the kids in AP classes for just that reason.

There’s a Catholic school in my town that implemented a zero tolerance policy just to combat the use of speed, because of all the all-night study sessions the kids pulled.

[Catamount]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I’m arguing the same thing I argue whenever a bureaucrat comes up with yet another initiative for a classroom they have not set foot in: it isn’t the BEST use of time.

Of course I am talking about cursive, not writing: I would far rather the time spent teaching cursive be spent teaching students how to build a cogent argument, for example.

Today’s Toothpaste for Dinner is tangentially relevant to this argument.

I think that teaching handwriting is a good way to develop hand-eye coordination.

[monstro]

Handwriting is important.

But it is also mundane and simple enough for a parent to teach it to their own children.

[MandaJo]

@monstro

Handwriting is important.

But it is also mundane and simple enough for a parent to teach it to their own children.

I don’t think the question is “Can parents teach it?”. Many will not, because they lack the time, ability, or sense that it is important. Many parents feel that education is the school’s job. That doesn’t mean that schools should teach it, either, but if it’s a fundamental skill (which is open to debate) we really don’t want it to be one that children from two-parent (more time), educated households learn and children without those advantages do not–that’s the exact sort of scenario that deepens already existing divides.

[Hampshire]

Could handwriting be taught quicker if it was done at a higher age? 8th or 9th grade?
Seems like you could teach a teenager cursive over a couple days rather than spending wasted hours upon hours in second grade.

[Dangerosa]

@monstro

Handwriting is important.

But it is also mundane and simple enough for a parent to teach it to their own children.

If you want something to be a standard throughout society, you really need to make sure its in the school agenda. Some parents are great at making sure they fill in the gaps in their child’s formal education. Some have Junior step off the bus and straight into XBox time - they themselves are harried from a 40+ hour a week job, keeping a house, keeping kids - or maybe they don’t care. Or maybe they don’t recognize the gaps.

[nearwildheaven]

@2ManyTacos

22 year old guy here, didn’t go to school in the 1980’s, spent most of my K-12 years in the period between 2000-2009…

Ok, before I get to the crux of the question…how the FUCK can a teenage kid get to fucking driving age without being able to sign his name? I’m sorry, but that’s just inexcusable and a downright failing aspect of current education regimes.

I wondered that too. Don’t kids write anything, or do they just type everything on a computer? Or do they just spend all day, every day, going to anti-bullying seminars? (It seems that way around here. :dubious:)

A similarly disturbing thing that’s been observed in my field, and some others too, is that a huge percentage of people are graduating from COLLEGE with NO job experience of any kind! :eek: They didn’t even work during school vacations. Interesting.

[nearwildheaven]

@JohnT

Sure, why not? They’ll spend far more of their time playing video games, goofing off, etc. You’re seriously arguing that learning to write is a waste of time?

The solution is simple. Invent a cursive-writing video game, and kids will learn it.

[Hampshire]

@nearwildheaven

I wondered that too. Don’t kids write anything, or do they just type everything on a computer? Or do they just spend all day, every day, going to anti-bullying seminars? (It seems that way around here. :dubious:)

Sure, they learn printing. Just not cursive anymore. And besides writing checks and signing signatures no one really needs cursive anymore.
Our school districts current agreed upon taught syle is d’nealian print
.

[Macca26]

@nearwildheaven

I wondered that too. Don’t kids write anything, or do they just type everything on a computer? Or do they just spend all day, every day, going to anti-bullying seminars? (It seems that way around here. :dubious:)

A similarly disturbing thing that’s been observed in my field, and some others too, is that a huge percentage of people are graduating from COLLEGE with NO job experience of any kind! :eek: They didn’t even work during school vacations. Interesting.

I remember thinking that was a grand idea, to work somewhere better paying than work study during summer vacation during college. Run on down to the Blue and Yellow Buy, the Red Office Implements, the Proper Name Craft Store, and so on, apply for jobs…

Well it took that hiring manager about a week and a half to get back to me at Blue and Yellow Buy, and then he went on vacation so the interview was a week and a half after that…and then there was a second interview to go through, and that took another 4 days to schedule. Then they had to think about it some, and call me back 3 days after that. Great! You start NEXT Monday. Hm, okay, a whole month gone already… that’s…great. And I have to buy your special polo? Hum. Oh, my hours don’t even total 5 hours a week? 3 hours this week?! I specifically asked for at least 20 in my interview and everybody said I would get it.

After about a month and a half of that, I quit because honestly it was a waste of time at that point and it was time to go back to college anyway, and I certainly wasn’t going to commute 30 minutes for 3 damn hours.

I arranged to continue my work study through the whole summer as well in the following college years. Much more worth it. While retail had the potential to give me much more money if they actually gave me hours, work study was a guaranteed set of hours albeit at minimum wage.

I can see why a lot of students wouldn’t want to put up with the lengthy bullshit required to get hired places. You’re shitty retail, you want me or not? I never even bothered to put my stint there on my resume.

[That_Don_Guy]

@bump

Not necessarily… if you’re in Texas and go to some rural, podunk school and that 3.25 / 65% percentile SAT puts you in the top 10% of your graduating class, you’re automatically admitted to UT and A&M. Conversely, if you go to a huge, academically oriented school where a 4.0 and 90% SAT puts you in the 11% of your class rank, you’re not automatically admitted, and are put in line BEHIND that person from the hick school with the 3.25 / 65% percentile score.

/most idiotic legislation by the Texas Legislature ever.

Why? It beats having to compare every school against every other school for grade inflation, and I have a feeling Texas was given a choice between this and outright Affirmative Action. If you base it entirely on how smart the students are, you will find out quickly that they are disproportionately Caucasian or Asian, mainly because school districts in predominantly Black or Hispanic areas tend to get much less money (because the property values are lower and the families can’t afford to pay additional school taxes).

Back to the original topic: even when I went to school (1970s), complaints about homework tended to start in middle school, and the excuse was always the same: "Every teacher thinks that his subject is the most important and expects me to spend pretty much all of my available time on his homework; when anyone says, ‘What about my other classes?’, the response is universally, ‘Not my problem.’ "

[JohnT]

Perhaps. However, I am quite positive my daughter has much more homework than I did at her age. But, then, she works harder on it in a week than I did for a year.

And the projects! God, help save us from the projects! From all of our POV’s, if Sophia never has another group project again, it will be too soon.