It is hugely entertaining to see LHOD, of all people, complaining about uncivil conduct on a message board. I needed a good laugh - thanks.
Probably not; the recordkeeping for that would be pretty bad.
There is a distantly related messageboard where people can snark all they want, and occasionally we send people over there. I don’t much like it over there, so I almost never visit it, though.
Daniel
Well, bottom line is it’s your board, your rules. I would propose documenting and announcing bannings, so posters don’t go off on wild speculation, but in the end you have the ultimate control, and people can pout and sulk and holler all they want. If you want them gone, they’re gone.
Lefty,
R.E. your teaching hijack. Did you consider Lateral Entry? I have been looking into that, but the school system in my county is so bad I would be forced into a long commute.
Remarkable.
Needless to say I don’t share your views. But I’m curious–is there some kind of research that suggests that previous (perhaps even repeated) exposure to bullies, delinquents, and tyrants teaches valuable lessons in “how to deal with” people like this?
That really pisses me off! Who were these pathetic maggots! Arrrrrrgh SMASH! 
Not everyone reads Snopes, you know. Although they should.
I don’t know of any research to this effect. I do know that a friend of mine growing up had attended Montessori schools until he hit high school, at which point he came to the public school. He was completely unprepared for the environment, and ended up getting suspended for getting in fights with weapons (which he had not started, but which he didn’t really know how to defuse, either). It was very ugly, and in conversations with him, he seemed to feel that he had been in some ways ill-served by his early Montessori experience.
Does this mean that I think teachers ought to deliberately subject children to unfairness in any way? Oh, Hell no I don’t think that. If I could make my classroom the world’s safest place, I would do so.
But I can’t; so when kids encounter unfairness, from other children or other adults, I hope that I can use it to teach them lessons in how to deal with people like that.
What do you think?
Daniel
Hoo boy did I ever consider it. My long consideration of it led to a delay in applying to school, which led to a hasty decision to go to WCU, not having fully explored the teaching program at UNCA (which is closer and IMO a far superior school).
Unfortunately, NC TEACH doesn’t have a program for regular elementary school teachers, and that’s really where I want to be, so I’m going the regular route.
Unfortunately, so are a disproportionate number of cretins. Mind you, I’ve got some brilliant, wonderful classmates; but they don’t make for good anecdotes :).
Daniel
The problem is, most public schools don’t deal with unfairness. My son was suspended from public school a few times, not because he started a fight, but because he was defending himself against a bully. No fighting. Period. Go find a teacher. That does not teach children to stand up for themselves, but that they should meekly take whatever is dished out to them, then go tattle.
The school’s stance is, “Well, unless a teacher sees it from beginning to end, we don’t really know what happened, so we suspend all parties involved.”
One time, my son was assigned a country to do research on. He was assigned Slovenia. Not France, not Spain, Slovenia.
He got an in-school suspension because he was not “researching” his country when the teacher took the class to the school library. I had to call the teacher and point out the obvious, that Slovenia didn’t exist 20 years ago, so the school library did not have a lot of info. He did most of his work at our public library and off the internet. The suspension was lifted.
If I had one suggestion to make to you, it’s to use your brain and common sense when dealing with kids.
I’m not trivializing what your kid experienced–his story sounds horrible. However, are you sure that this is the policy of most schools?
In any case, be assured that it won’t be my policy. My goal is to be unfair only in the direction of mercy, and to teach my children that this is the only acceptable exception to fairness. If I really can’t determine who started a fight, then I really can’t punish either student for starting the fight: it’s simple as that.
Yes, I understand the need for discipline; and I’m sure that I’ll understand it even more if I get a difficult school. But discipline and petty dictatorship aren’t the same thing. If I have to be a dictator, I’ll be a benevolent dictator.
Daniel
Well, this is something different you’re describing here. I think it’s possible to use those experiences as a method for teaching students how to deal with difficult people. However, simply being a victim of a bully or tyrant isn’t necessarily going to do that (IMO). And I think it’s also possible to instill those lessons without your kid having to undergo bullying or teasing.
I know of schools who are using conflict resolution programs to give students tools for dealing with problems like this. I applaud those, they’ve seemed to be effective. But it’s a concerted effort, it’s not just throwing kids together knowing there will be bullies and assuming the non-bullies will learn valuable life lessons from the trauma.
Most schools? I don’t know. More than a few schools? I’m pretty sure it is, yes. It is called ‘zero tolerance’ or ‘fight-free schools’ and I do know of at least one school I can recall where it is the policy in force. It was, indeed, against the rules for a child to defend himself against a bully: All fighting, even defensive fighting, was treated equally.
I think this is district-level policy, or at least not anything an individual teacher can change.
I don’t know about ‘most schools,’ but punishing instigators and victims equally was most certainly the policy of the school system I went to (in Ohio), and it is the policy of the school where my husband currently teaches (in NC). Indeed, just a few days ago he was telling me about a student he’d had a couple years ago who put up with being picked on by another student for MONTHS before he finally just got sick of it and kicked the kid’s ass. The pickee got suspended for LONGER than the picker, even though the administration was aware of the situation (and had tried to stop it), because the pickee was viewed as being the instigator of the actual fight - never mind he’d been goaded into it, and over a long period of time, too. And this was despite the teachers objecting to the decision, and saying so. I’m sure that kid thinks there really isn’t justice in the world … though it was worth it in the end, because the ass-kicking was what finally stopped the bullying for good.
I cannot be concerned with what happens at “most” schools. All I can try to fix is what my children directly encounter. It does no good for my son if a school in San Diego has a different policy. This was the public school my son attended, and I had to deal with their policy.
As such, I got them out of the public schools in my area and into a private school. It was what was best for my children.
Lefty, I wish you the best of luck. You sound very optimistic. I’ve seen horrible public schools. If you can, I would suggest you substitute teach in your school district. You may get quite an epiphany.
Well then, I wish you wouldn’t say, “The problem is, most public schools don’t deal with unfairness.” That gives the impression that you’re concerned with, and knowledgeable about, most schools.
I’ve got many friends who teach in this school district; I observe once a week in a local classroom; and for work, I visit about 18 classrooms every month. If there were going to be an epiphany of the sort you’re suggesting, it probably would’ve already come.
Now see, this is something totally different, and in this case, I’m in agreement with the school (assuming that the goading was nonphysical). It is never appropriate to respond to words with fists, and the school district is entirely in the right to punish the kid who escalated it to physical violence more than the asshole who kept badgering the fighter.
That’s not what we were talking about before, though: before we were saying that if one person attacks another person, both people get suspended, even if the attacked person doesn’t fight back.
Daniel
I don’t see any logic in punishing the victim, and even less logic in punishing a victim who did not fight back. That’s pretty damn stupid.
LHoD, you will probably be expected to report students who get into physical fights regardless of who started it. (I think it has to do with school law and liability.)
The bad news is that some of the blue ribbon schools are failing according to the testing done for the No Child Left Behind mandate. It is my opinion, and that of many of my colleagues, that the fault is with the design of NCLB standards and testing and not with the blue ribbon schools. It would be a disaster to see these schools dismantled!
Please find me a public school that does not have this policy, that suspends bullies but not the victims.