Perhaps I misread what JRD was saying, but I took the “local custom variations” to mean local where Islam is practiced. Of course Islam originated in the ME, but it’s mostly practiced outside the ME, where I don’t think we can say “local customs” generally included circumcision.
I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that wives of circumcised men had less occurrences of cervical cancer than wives of uncircumcised men.
I distinctly remember reading that the Iraqi Army/Secret Police checked male prisoners penises to see if they were circumcised and thus prove they were Israeli/Jewish spies, which makes it seem like by default Iraqi Muslims aren’t circumcised.
Circumcision is widespread in Iraq; the great majority of adult male Iraqis would be circumcised.
I don’t know where you read what you read, but an awful lot of guff about what the Iraqis did or didn’t do was written at about the time of the Second Gulf War. Just sayin’.
Indeed you did. The precedence of the tradition of circumcision to Islam I was referring to was to the origin of the faith. There ARE local custom variations but those are separate matters.
In my case, my father was not circumcised but my brother and I were, so that wasn’t it in our case. In my parents’ defense, this was the early fifties when the myth – at least – that circumcision was required was highly prevalent to the point where it was done without the parents’ permission or even knowledge beforehand. I don’t know what went on in our cases because somehow I never got around to talking about my penis with my mum.
The subject came up at work one day (I forget how) and one of the guys said that his little brother had been circumcised but he was not. It seems Mom put it off until he was four and bro was two. “After hearing the ruckus when my brother was taken into that small room, there was no way in hell they were taking me there.” He put up such a fuss, mom put it off until later and never got around to it.
In the sixties, my mother wanted to have a moyel circumcise my brother on the eighth day, and she had a hell of a time preventing the hospital from doing it before she left. They gave her the consent form when she was still groggy from anesthesia, and again after she threw it out, and then lectured her on how important it was when she still resisted signing.
That site is not something to rely on.
The standard islamic tradition only relates the male circumcision.
The spurious hadith about female is prevalent not among the majority of muslims, but is found cited in the Eastern Africa through the sahel - it is an Egyptian invention, and one finds the concentration in the Africa of the female circumcision in the Eastern africa, among all the religions, along the old Nile trade routes.
The idea is completely absent in the rest of the North Africa, the Levant, the Turkey, etc. etc.
Not many many Muslims. Some of the Muslims heavily concentrated in the East African region from Egypt - nile trade bands through the Sahel.
The vast majority of the Islamic world does not practice this and regards it as completely weird when we learn of it.
Coming from the Maghreb culture when we hear Westerners talk about this as Muslim for the first time, our reaction is *What the fuck are you talking about white boy? * It is seriously very weird to have when you are younger Westerns piously telling you about the evils of “your culture religion” practice that you have never once fucking heard of… Only later do we learn of where this idea comes from.
it is African muslims, I am sure you refer to the Somali who have for some reason so heavily invested culturally in this (although I have learned of a small Indian sect that does this).
This is indeed accurate.
it is indeed the north east africa and a whole band of the territory alinged with the nile rooted trade routes across the African sahel, it seems to me an ancient egyptian perversion that was spread (it is practiced to 80% by the Quptic christians).
I seem to recall that study, too, but I also seem to recall that it was very poorly controlled. Maybe eating pork contributes to cervical cancer, for instance: There’s a strong correlation between women married to circumcised men and women who don’t eat pork.
Sorry, that reading makes no sense. Why would you expect the same practice to have originated independently based on local practice throughout the enormous area where Islam has spread? It’s more parsimonious to propose that it is rooted in the area where Islam originated (which it is) and then spread along with Islam.
Since we’ve recently learned that most cervical cancer is caused by a virus, it seems intuitive that a practice that makes hygiene easier also reduces the risk of cervical cancer.
That being said, any health benefits of circumcision seem modest*, and obtainable without body modification. I had my infant son circumcised because I’m a Jew, and he’d be an outcast among Jews if he were uncut, and as best as I can tell, it’s not, on net, a harmful practice. But were I not Jewish I would not have done so.
- the greatest health benefit seems to be that it greatly reduces the risk of a man contracting HIV from sex with a woman. But that risk is modest in the US, and condoms work, too.
If you believe Dominique Lapierre’s account, back during the civil unrest that preceded the Partition of India, Hindu mobs looking to kill Muslims would sometimes demand that their victim drop their pants so they could tell if he was Muslim or Hindu.
I don’t know about cervical cancer, but according to the World Health Organization,
Just throwing that into the mix.
As much as I want to limit the spread of HIV, I’m not sure you can morally justify removing bits of a men for the benefit of women.
Can’t we just issue condoms to people instead of cutting parts off their genitals?
They’re so intermeshed one might forget that something that is considered an Arab thing might not necessarily be a Muslim thing, even if a Muslim is doing it. Perhaps female genital mutilation is an African or Arab thing, not something commanded or recommended in the Koran?
You what ?
Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”
Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527
[ They had endless, heady hours of fun in those days ]
*
Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama’s father relates that the Prophet said: “Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women.”*
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167.
Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (this is called Hufaad)
Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law
Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri
[ Sometimes the fun had to stop ]
WikiIslam: Qur’an, Hadith and Scholars: Female Genital Mutilation
It derives from the same source as the Jewish imperative, Islam ( and Christianity [ which decided to junk that bit ] being offshoots of Judaism.
Dup: Board screwed up
You quoted not widely accepted HADITH. not the Quran.
So what has already been said, but thank you for the Wiki-Google theology learning.
I never said it wasn’t hadith. Are you somehow disputing the hadith ? Or do you have any point at all ?
Yes, those Hadith on women are not widely considered valid Hadith so I am highlighitng random Google theology is not useful. And you posted in apparent reply to a person mentioning the Quran.
There are thousands and thousands of the dubuious hadith, googling up the hadith says very little.