This has become a hot topic in recent years. Most people in this part of the world agree that female circumcision is unarguably abusive and wrong. Why do opinions on male circumcision vary so widely?
The health concerns relating to it have been unsubstantiated, provided one has resonably good hygiene habits. So why do it? Why not?
Most people have their preferences regarding the “cut” and “uncut”.
What are your thoughts? If you had a son tomorrow, or if you have one now, would you or did you have this flap of skin removed, and why?
–ng, who used to enjoy films cut for TV, but “bought” the “unedited” version
Noodlegirl, this isn’t a good time for this discussion. If you run a search on the name Jack Dean Tyler, you’ll see why.
Jack was an anticircumcision debater who had has vitriol down pat but needed to work on his logic, evidence, and sanity. Eventually, all other anticirc posters abandoned the cause rather than be lumped in with him.
Jack was banned recently, and may or may not have purposely sent an email carrying a virus to the mods.
In short, this is a bad time to discuss this. It’s not your fault, but there’s no helping it. Some one is probably going to be around shortly to call you a sockpuppet of Jack. This image can be dispelled by posting elsewhere on other topics. I’d suggest waiting a bit, posting around (as I see you have been doing) and then coming around with this topic again.
If you feel a pressing need to discuss this, I’d respectfully suggest that you find a different community to do it in. Unhappily, few people here will be in the mood for this right now.
Just to make things clear, I just thought this was an interesting topic, and was interested in people’s opinions. This is not a heated topic for me. I think circumcision is neither right or wrong. It’s all a matter of aesthetics.
I only thought of this because a friend just had a baby boy and we discussed circumcision today.
Again, sorry to have brought this up at this time, and for not having noticed what has been going on (there is so much here, it is hard to be aware of everything!). Please, just forget I mentioned it…
Hey, I haven’t abandoned the anticirc cause - I just made it clear when JDT showed up that a lot of his reasons for being against circumcision were hogwash (it is not a Jewish conspiracy, circumcision does not make you more violent), that my reasons were simple and believable, and then I stayed the hell out of the argument.
Readers Digest version of my reasons - it is an unnecessary operation which has more drawbacks than benefits, and I think it’s wrong to practice cosmetic surgery on someone without their consent, especially when it is not to correct some abnormality. I have absolutely nothing against people who choose to get circumcised later in life, I actually considered it myself at one point (was in love with a girl who wanted me to get cut).
We’ve also had several circumcision threads in the past – pre-JDT, I mean. Try a search on “circumcision.” Then weed out all the most recent threads, which will be the Jack Dean Tyler stuff. Unless you just want a laugh. The guy could be funny, in a creepy way. At first, at least. After a fairly short time, the weight of his many obvious social and mental problems started to crush any humor. I, myself, could only read 3 or 4 of his posts at a time without getting depressed.
Circumcision: not a necessary or even recommended procedure. Though there are links with circumcision and a lack of penile cancer, this is a long-issue that the adult male can wrestle with on his own. The rest of the issue is largely cosmetic and should not be performed on unwilling babies. It has no impact on the child’s life. Unlike siamese twin splitting or abnormalities that will effect the development, circumcision is totally unnecessary.
aynrandlvr and Noodle…I never looked at the JDT threads…been here awhile too…
But yes anyrandlover I had heard or read sometime, somewhere that cancer of the penis is pretty much non-exsistant in circumcised men. Then I had a buddy who was in his late twenties/thirties and pretty much had to have one. He was a welder or sheet metal worker or something like that. No matter how well or often he cleaned himself or wore cotton undies he kept getting infections. Likely from the fact that he worked indoors and it was always hot. So less than a year after getting his vasectomy he was back in getting circumcised. Later when he told me about it I had to laugh. He said he would rather have ten vasectomies then go through being circumcised again.
Makes you wonder how painful it is for you tiny little baby. Although I had my son circumcised. And as it was healing it didn’t seem to bother him much at all.
Regardless of JDT’s raving lunacy (and he was, indeed, a LOONY), factual information regarding circumcision (i.e., penile cancer, trauma to the child, etc.) was posted in his threads - you just have to read around his posts, because his are pure hogwash.
Just seems pointless to start the entire argument over again and go searching for information that’s already here, after all…
OK, I’m going to say that I agree with aynrandlover. Circumcision is unneccesary surgery that has not been shown to have any appreciable benefit. As such, it shouldn’t be routinely performed on minors. I would never have a son of mine circumcized, except that my wife is Jewish, and well, since I’m an atheist we agreed to raise the kids Jewish. And that probably means circumcision. I’m hoping we’ll only have girls…
I agree with the pro-choice circumcisionists on the board. Snipping it off as a baby robs the invidivual of the choice as an adult whether to have one or not. Once one is an adult, if they choose to have it done or not have it done, best to them!!!
(As to the Jewish issue…well, far be it for me to criticize a religion. If that’s their culture than that’s their culture and nothing I can do about it)
Let’s rephrase that. He DID send an email carrying a virus to all the mods. In a later letter, he said that the virus was “pretty much harmless” and half-heartedly apologized. He didn’t say he purposely sent it, but he sure didn’t deny purposely sending it, which most people would do. However, JDT is not most people.
I say we shouldn’t let any single poster keep us out of
debate. JDT is gone now, let’s move on.
I am a good, Jewish Boy. Well, technically I'm 25 but I'll always be Mama's baby boy. As you might expect, I support male circumcision for religious purposes. Men of the Jewish or Islamic or certain other faiths are reminded of their heritage and identity every time they undress.
I am against circumcision as a standard operation on newborns. I've never seen a study that proves circumcision
provides a benefit that good hygeine does not. It does give surgeons a chance to show off their skills, and hospitals get to charge you for another item.
Further, the rate of Jews in America marrying people of other religions is rather high. Interfaith marriage is a whole other debate, but I and many other Jews worry about our future. If circumcision were performed only as a religious ceremony, Jewish men would be visibly set apart. (Well at least in locker rooms, nudist colonies or on hot dates). Before any one yells at me, I do not believe Judaism is better or in any way superior to other religions. It is however, my heritage and I worry about it's future.
Jews…I thought the circumcision wasn’t performed until later in the teen years?
Never payed much attention to Judaism, tho. I have enough of a problem with the Christians And don’t even get me started on Buddists…
[sub]All in jest, please![/sub]
I dunno, tho, Doc. I think there are still a great many people that would choose circumcision even if its routine-ness at birth was, uh, cut off. There are a great many people on both sides of the fence.
Female circumcision: Big difference between that and male circumcision. It should not be called circumcision for the word means, essentially, circumference, or to remove tissue in a circle.
They don’t do that to women. They remove a vital sexual organ to prevent the enjoyment of sex, in an effort to turn the woman into a ‘slave’ to her husband for if she enjoys sex, she might stray. (It is OK for the husband to enjoy sex and, occasionally, have affairs, for after all, in those societies, the man rules.)
No, cut the glans off of the male penis and you have something pretty close, or simply remove the whole penis. (All over the board, a whole bunch of men just cringed and grabbed their crotches.)
Male circumcision is practiced for cleanliness and health. Not all ‘natural’ men seem to feel the need to pull the foreskin back and wash out the smegma which forms there, nor to clean there after intercourse, and the ‘hood’ provides a nice, rich, warm incubator for all forms of bacteria. Also, later in life, the hood can tighten, causing problems in retraction, for which the main treatment is a surgical slit in the foreskin to open it up.
I believe you’re thinking about a bar/bat mitzvah, which happens in the 13th year of a Jew. From what I’ve read, it’s traditional for the youth to make a speech, starting with “Today I am a man”, and then going on from there. Bat mitzvahs are for the girls. As David B said, the Jewish circumcision ritual happens 8 days after the boy’s birth.
In some cultures (I’ll get the exact cites from Campbell’s
Power Of Myth and sociology books later), males are circumcised as a rite of passage into manhood. On the day of the ceremony, you wake up with the body of a boy. That night you go to sleep with the body of a man. I have read unverified reports of Jewish sects that circumcise males at the age of adulthood. Considering how vastly the practices of the Karaites differ from the mainstream, such sects are possible but I have found no concrete evidence.
Let's not bring female "circumcision" into this. Female circumcision is far more dangerous and destroys much of the capacity for sexual pleasure. This butchery destroys one of nature's great works and replaces it with a hole surrounded, and sometimes obstructed, by scar tissue. Male circumcision involves only the removal of a bit of skin. It has been argued that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure. But circumcised men can enjoy sex.
It's worth noting that many of the cultures that included male circumcision as a religious rite lived in desert areas. In the desert circumcision has a great benefit, it prevents sand from being caught between the glans and foreskin.
The Xhosa tribe of South Africa sends males out into the bush at age 13. They paint themselves white and then circumcise themselves with the help of a medicine man.
Luckily, my bar mitzvah consisted of girls taller than the guys, a crappy band, hotel food, and reading the Torah, singing Anim Z’mirot and the Amidah with a breaking voice in front of a packed synagogue. No literal bloodshed, to the best of my knowledge.
So, not opting for circumcision leaves your child at risk for infection and cancer?? Can’t the same be said about anything??? Any body part can become infected if you don’t clean it well. Just teach the kid to use a little soap and water. As far as the cancer concern, that’s not a good enough argument either. For instance, those women who cut off their breasts to avoid breast cancer can still develop cancer elsewhere. Why mutilate your body to avoid one small risk when there are greater, more likely dangers out there? I don’t consider circumsicion to be mutilation, per se, but as small as the risks are for for keeping the member intact, why go thru the trouble??
Being that I’m pregnant now with my first son, I’m having this discussion alot lately and I just can’t understand any arguments for it at all. :rolleyes:
And don’t even get me started on Buddists…