No, but Christians worship the same G-d as Jews. That sounds funny, but they didn’t get G-d from the Christians, it was the other way around. That would almost be like saying because my mom and I share some DNA, that she got her DNA from me.
IWLN, that’s logical nonsense. If the Christians worship the same God (A) as the Jews worship (B), then A=B. Therefore, B=A. If B doesn’t equal A, then A cannot equal B.
That would be like my younger brother claiming to have the same father as I do, but then saying I can’t claim to have the same father as he does. Either we have the same father or we do not. Either Christians worship the Jewish god, and vice versa, or neither worships the God of the other. Oh, and since even Jewish theologians also stand by the fact that the Jewish God (B) is the Islamic God ©, then B=C. So if A=B then A=C.
There is no logical way to claim that the Christian and Jewish God is the same from either perspective without claiming that is true from both perspectives. And if you equate the Christian and Jewish Gods, then you are also equating the Christian God with the Islamic God, no matter how illogically you may attempt to parse your statements to not say what you are plainly saying.
Logic defies those who try to claim the nonsense that these entities, if they exist, are “not the same God.”
I’d say no, but Jews worship the same God as Muslims.
Way back in this thread, if you’ll note, I said that we all literally do worship the same God, just differently. The Christian G-d was re-defined and another aspect added, so it can’t really be said that the Jewish faith worships the Christian G-d, because his definition has been altered. Christians can worship the Jewish G-d because his definition has always stayed the same. My perspective when I was a Christian was the “Jewish G-d” was my G-d. If you asked someone of the Jewish faith if the Christian G-d was theirs also, I believe they would deny it emphatically. Semantically, there is no vise versa.
If there is only one God then they must be praying to the same one. The question is: Does God pay attention to any of them?
The Jews say: God is unknowable.
God and the concepts of God are different things. God is not in anybodies head. People just presume their concept is correct.
I like THE FORCE myself. A god more like magnetisim than a person. But I’m a heretic.
Dal Timgar
No. They are not the same God.
The Judeo-Christian God is an unchanging God.
The god of Islam, according to the Koran, is a changing god.
Sorry to be an ass about it… but just the fact that so many “different” Gods are being discussed when apparently only one position exists for the job either proves I am right in either point or maybe even in both:
As an atheist: There is no god; or
As an anti-clericist/anti-organized religion: Organized Religion has nothing to do with god/gods… only the interests of those in power.
Sorry? Where did you get that “wisdom”?
Thank you for explaining it in detail.
Salaam. A
Since someone posted that Muslims worship “horrible wrong” and for all the others debating that there must be more then one God since the 3 monotheistic religions, or some of them, worship an other one:
Can someone answer my question about how many Uncreated Creators of the Universe there are in their opinion?
Can I have a list of the Uncreated Creators?
Thank you.
Salaam. A
Muslims see Muhammed as the most perfect possible example to follow in order to be the best Muslim possible.
If people want to point out the legitimacy of this claim, which is supported by the vast majority of Muslims, they tend to refer especially to the following sentence, which is part of verse 3 of surat al-ma’ida (V; 3)
Presently (at this instance/ now) I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.
I don’t agree with this and not because at first sight this line is taken completely out of context when you read the rest of vers 3 of sura V.
But to explain to a certain extend why I don’t agree would ask me to translate for you the connected hadith and exegeses, both for Sunni and Shi’a Islam. And I don’t think that is at its place in this thread.
One can however add to this that the idea of a prophet being “the last” to be send to humanity is not an “Islam only” thing nor was it the first time it appeared. Mandaism and Manichaeism for example propagate the same idea.
I think that the idea of Jesus being “the son of God” follows the same reasoning. For Christians Jesus is “the last prophet” they need to follow and believe in as condition to be saved.
Such reasoning you don’t find in Islam. There is no “need” to follow Muhammed (that is why the term "Muhammedians or Muhammedism shows an utterly wrong perception of Islam). Muslims are expected to follow the commands of God in Al Qur’an.
Salaam. A
Deb, babe. Listen carefully. There are two parts to this discussion, and they can overlap.
First: What are the qualities of deity, as defined by a single religion?
Some specific ones that happen to come to mind, for example, would be the christian Trinity of father, son, and holy ghost, and the jewish monotheism.
From the perspective of the christian, there is no difference between the two. From the perspective of the jew, it certainly seems to be polytheism.
Secondly, the issue is, what does a follower of a religion believe about other religions? A christian might believe that all gods are his god, while a worshipper of Odin might think the deity the christians follow is one among many deities.
Religion is not transitive. A does not have to equal B if B equals A. I could be a worshipper of Chronus and believe that the christian deity is subservient to Chronus. That doesn’t mean that any christian would think that my worship is part of their religious philosophy.
This is an endless debate to which a universal consenus is impossible given the stance assumed by each religion.
Each individual will have to draw his own conclusions based on a personal study.
Make a thorough study of the nature of Jehovah God vs. the Muslim god Allah.
No, give a list of the Uncreated Creators of the Universe to see if there is more then one. That would resolve the problem.
Salaam. A
Chronus, Anu, Ptah, maybe? Or Ra. Odin had a father, but I forget his name.
It’s been my observation that the people who claim that the God of Islam is not the same deity as the God of Christianity are also of the same ilk who claim that Catholics are not Christians, but are pagan idolators, the Whore of Babylon, who is drunk with the blood of the saints…
In other words, ignorant.
They hold that Allah is not the Judeo-Christian God, but the Moon God worshipped by the Pagan Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.
I have to laugh when they say that there is one God, and his name is Jehovah, not Allah. They only reveal their ignorance of both linguistics and of Scripture. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that God’s name is Jehovah. In those rare instances where He is actually named, the name applied is Yahweh (YHVH). In most places where He is referred to, he is referred to as Elohim (Hebrew for God). I’m no linguist, but it’s fairly obvious to me that the words Allah and Elohim are derived from the same root. The name Jehovah is an amalgam of the tetragrammaton YHVH and the vowels from the title Adonai. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, not given as His name. [slight hijack] BTW, Arab Christians refer to the Virgin Mary by the title Wallah dit il Allah, or (rough translation) God-bearer, a phrase analagous to the Greek Theotokos [/slight hijack].
The differences are in human perceptions of the nature of God. As a Catholic Christian, I regard the Islamic perception of God as being in error, but I have no doubts that the God of Islam is the same deity as the God of Christianity and of Judaism.
You’re correct about that. Elohim is considered a (somewhat anomalous) pluralized form of the singular eloah. All these are related to the Babylonian ilu, which is the earliest recorded form of this Proto-Semitic root.
Slightly garbled. The Arabic phrase you’re referring to is wâlidat Allâh, and it’s a literal translation of theotokos, as you said. (Most of the Arab Christians belong to the Greek Orthodox Church.)
The Arabic for ‘mother’ is umm, and the famous Lebanese chanteuse Fayrûz performed an Arabic Christian song to Mary that began Yâ Umm Allâh… (O Mother of God). The Arabic “Hail Mary” includes the phrase “Umm Allâh” the same as in English they say “Mother of God.”
In Arabic, wâlidah means ‘she who bears child’. In other languages used by Muslims, it is a more formal and respectful substitute for the word “mother.” For example, in Ottoman Turkey the Empress Dowager’s title was Valide Sultan (using the Turkish form of the same word). It’s analogous to the Swahili term for ‘mother’, mama mzazi, which similarly comes from the Bantu root meaning ‘to bear children’.
Thea, are you saying that’s what I said, above? It’s not what I’m saying, at all. I’m saying that the core definition of deity in each of the three major faiths is… at least significantly different. I’d be interested if someone were to help me work out how. I know that the concept of trinity is a big deal-breaker between Chistians and Jews, and between Christians and Muslims, as far as I can tell.
E-Sabbath that commentary wasn’t directed at you. I actually read posts before I respond to them, so I understand that you understand that the Islamic God is the same deity as the Christians and Jews. It’s what we believe about the nature of God that is different.
What I mainly had in mind was an outfit called Koinonia House, which has a website on which you can listen to some very, very wild stuff. It was in their main radio program “64/40” where I first heard the “God of Islam is the Moon God” rap. There’s some pretty freaky stuff in their programming, and can make for very entertaining listening. There are many others who have similar beliefs about Bible prophecy, the Catholic Church and other religions. I in no way intended to toss you into the same basket with them.
Jomo Mojo thanks for setting me straight. It’s been a long time since I’ve heard the phrase in question, and I’ve only seen it in print once, and that was ages ago.
Nitpick, Thea. For the purposes of this thread, I’m treating that as an undefined statement. I can’t prove that deity is. I can’t prove he isn’t, either. Till I die.
I can say there is a historical connection between the three faiths.
But the question that this thread is meant to resolve is, is it the same deity? I’m not a scholar of religion. But I would like to know. So… can we discuss it? Why is this deity considered the same by some, different by others?
Interestingly, if there is no deity, then I don’t think Jews and Christians have to worship the same one… multiple, independent falsehoods can exist. If there is only one, then either one is right and one is wrong, or both are wrong, or both are right.
If there is more than one… and I don’t see why there can’t be, just call it ineffable… they can both be right.
However, and this is my sticking point. Muslims and Jews, from what I understand, worship a similar definition of deity, though with some different commands. I understand the Jewish definition pretty well, better than I do the Muslim, so I have to argue from the Jewish perspective.
Christians, with the doctrine of Trinity as the greatest example, have a much different definition of deity.
Am I correct or incorrect?
I think it’s not that they have a different definition of deity. None of the three faiths you mention are so presumtuous as to offer a comprehensive definition of God, but if you pressed them they would all come up with some variation on “God is the uncreated creator of all things other than himself”, i.e. pretty much the same definition.
But they do have different concepts of God - i.e. they conceive him, or think of him, differently. The primary difference, as you note, is that Christians are (mostly) trinitarian, whereas Jews and Muslims are definitely not. Also Christian believe that God has become incarnate, and Jews and Muslims do not.
Bit. of course, different conceptions of God exist within these faiths, as well as between them.
When does a different conception of God amount to a conception of a different God? Not a question to which any demonstrably obejectively right answer is possible, in my view.