No, I mentioned it around three days after and he wanted me to stick with it to see if it got better…it did, but not enough to make me stay on them. After another week of it, I went on desiprimine. I didn’t like that either. Not nearly as bad, but not good. I then went on Wellbutrin, but I never felt better from those either, mostly due to side effects. The dry mouth was impossible for me to live with. I was in what could be described as a haze, I suppose. Not completely, but definitely off my mark.
I can hardly call your description from the desk reference “anecdotal.” Maybe most people don’t have the same reaction I did, but enough did that they made the list of side effects. That’s why they have clinical trials. So they can understand how far-reaching the side effects are. Acute depression is treated differently (based on my own experience) than what I would call “functional” depression (for lack of a better term). Sometimes the trade-offs are a bit steeper in order to get the result they’re looking for.
Well I’ve used cocaine, marijuana, opium, hash, heroin, peyote, mescaline, mushrooms, LSD, crystal meth…does that qualify?
Here is what I am getting at. You have made a statement that so far has been unsupported–
So far all we have discussed are side effects, while your statement refers to **effects, ** as if such a thing were to naturally follow from taking the drug. You have provided nothing to support that statement other than one anecdote that seems suspicious to me. In fact, I find it hard to believe that you reported to your doctor that taking imipramine was like taking PCP and were told to keep on using it. I submit that, at the very least, in this case the problem is more with the doctor than with the drug.
That’s really good! I am glad.
If you’d like to hear another firsthand account (and some secondhand ones) and I haven’t managed to totally alienate you in this thread, you can email or IM me or something.
Interesting. I was put on imipramine by the second psychiatrist (the first competent one) I saw after things fell apart. It was brand new and somewhat experimental, and I don’t remember anything much in the effect of side effects. Then again, when I did try Zoloft briefly, it left me violently nauseous, and Wellbutrin made me more jittery than a dozen espressos. Since this was while I was laid off 2 1/2 years ago and the antidepressants were my idea, not my therapist’s, my therapist and I agreed that the best anti-depressant for me would a new job.
continuity eror, one reason I’ve been telling my story here and elsewhere is because I used to have the same fears you did and they kept me from getting help until I was incapable of doing much of anything. When my friends took me to that hospital, I thought I’d screwed up my life for good and no one would ever want to hire me or associate with me again. I was wrong. Frankly, I’m a better employee than I was before I sought treatment, and a heck of a lot happier. I still get scared sometimes, but when I do, it’s less often and easier to deal with.
CJ
I don’t understand how you can differentiate between a side effect and an effect. The main purpose of the drug is to combat depression; the side effects can be worse than the theraputic effect. At any rate, it is an effect that cannot always be predicted, but has been noted in the clinical trials. It is supported in both my personal experience and the desk reference cite you provided. No one, including me, said that it was to be an expected part of the treatment. If you want to read that into it for the sake of arguing, that’s your business, but I’m not playing that game. Whether or not you believe me makes no difference to me. In cases of acute depression, you have little say in the treatment and have to defer to the doctor’s experience when he says he wants to wait and see if you adjust to it.
I’ll second what Kalhoun said. Any anti-depressant will vary in how effective it is in alleviating depression and what additional effects it has on any given person. It’s entirely possible for the negative side effects of a given medication to outweigh any positive effects it’s having.
Wellbutrin did wonders for a close friend of mine. While there’s a chance it might have helped me, the jitters and sleeplessness I experienced during the weekend I was on it outweighed any positive effect it had on me. With Zoloft, 4 hours after I took it, I was vomitting. I assume it helps others; it didn’t help me. On the other hand, imipramine did, as did Paxil (if they’re one and the same, please forgive me – it’s been a few years). Several people have said Paxil reduced or eliminated their sex drive; it didn’t have any effect on mine, but I was particularly hungry while I was on it. In fact, I think that’s when I gained a fair amount of weight. People have also told me that their responses to a given medication vary in effectiveness over time.
A good therapist or psychiatrist will be aware of this and make the required adjustments accordingly. A bad one won’t.
CJ
I was on imipramine in 1989. The doctor decided, after the side effects didn’t go away, that it was because of my physical condition. I weighed 86 lbs and was recovering from blood loss, so my body simply couldn’t tolerate it. Hence, the desipramine, which I was told was developed to accommodate a physically frail condition, i.e., old ladies and the like. That, too, was too much for me. The Wellbutrin completely robbed me of my ability to concentrate. So, in my case, the side effects outweighed the benefits, and I ended up on prozac, which saved my life, but eventually petered out. I go on it periodically when things start heading downhill, but it generally doesn’t remain effective for me for more than about a year.
One of the plusses of my experience with acute depression is that I see the signs earlier and haven’t gotten to the low I was at in '89. Once you’re that low, you do what you can to avoid getting there again.
I’d also like to add that I’m one of the lucky ones that responds well to the theraputic effects of antidepressants. I have friends that are not so lucky. My one friend has been on twice as many types as me, and still never goes into a period where she’s feeling “good”. But she tends to be a “glass half empty” person, where I am the opposite. That may or may not have something to do with it.
There are 84 side effects listed for imipramine. There is one effect, to wit, to act as an antidepressant. Side effects happen rarely, if at all. Most people who take the drug notice no side effects. Most people who take the drug notice the main effect.
I am still left wondering what you meant by this:*
Some antidepressants have a similar mind-altering effect to certain street drugs. They’re definitely not something you can take and function normally while under the influence.*
You have provided a single example of anecdotal evidence. This is what makes it anecdotal:
It reminded me of PCP.
You said that some antidepressants (i.e. more than one) have similar effects to certain (i.e. particular)street drugs. What are the antidepressants, what are the effects, what are the street drugs, and where are the studies that support your statement?
Actually, it is used to treat bedwetting as well. But what’s your point? THis is not a news flash. So…the fact that most people DON’T get the side effects makes it impossible for ANYONE to get them? Or maybe just me, huh?
Well, try this. The side effect (which was the ONLY effect I experienced) was similar to a street drug I was familiar with. Because it was a documented side effect, I can assume that I was not the only person to feel it. I could not function normally while under the influence. And again, seeing that it is **a DOCUMENTED side effect ** (or it wouldn’t appear as a known side effect), I’m pretty certain you’d get a similar response from others who experienced this side effect and had street drug experience to compare it to. Better? Do you get it now?
I simply reported what I experienced. I’m sure someone who never took PCP would not compare it to PCP. I’ll bet some people might actually experience no side effects. I can’t speak for them. It’s my experience. What it felt like was an opinion based on my experience; that it happened to me is *EVIDENCE. * Are you catching on now? Or should I type slower?
You said that some antidepressants (i.e. more than one) have similar effects to certain (i.e. particular)street drugs. What are the antidepressants, what are the effects, what are the street drugs, and where are the studies that support your statement?
[/QUOTE]
Read back a few posts…I mentioned imipramine, desipramine and wellbutrin. In my book, that constitutes “some.” How many do you need? I’m sure there are others who have had less than stellar experiences with antidepressants. After all, they ran CLINICAL TRIALS to get the information you posted for us yesterday.
This is essentially incoherent. If it were impossible for ANYONE to get the side effects there would be no side effects. I have no doubt that you experienced a side effect. What I doubt is that “confusion and disorientation” is what any reasonable person would think of as the “effect” of a street drug such as PCP, and using that as your basis for comparing the two is, at best, a deliberate use of hyperbole to buttress a weak point.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun}Well, try this. The side effect (which was the ONLY effect I experienced) was similar to a street drug I was familiar with. Because it was a documented side effect, I can assume that I was not the only person to feel it. I could not function normally while under the influence. And again, seeing that it **a DOCUMENTED side effect ** (or it wouldn’t appear as a known side effect), I’m pretty certain you’d get a similar response from others who experienced this side effect and had street drug experience to compare it to. Better? Do you get it now?[/QUOTE]
Translation: You know of no other cases. Yeah. I get it. You are talking out of your ass.
You have just defined anecdotal evidence. It has no scientific value. None. No matter how slowly you type, you cannot support an argument about what effects drugs have with anecdotal evidence.
What are the street drugs that resemble the desiprimane and welbutrin? What are the effects of desiprimane and wellbutrin that are similar to them? Can you cite anything for yourself, or do you need me to do the work for you? The information I provided listed possible side effects of one drug, not the primary effect.
Maybe if you had any experience with it, you’d know that confusion and disorientation is EXACTLY what it feels like.
I don’t need to know of any other cases. Your cite covered that for me quite nicely. Maybe you can go interrogate the people that developed the drug and get names. It’s not anecdotal if they’re listed as side effects. Dumbfuck. Now who’s talking out of her ass?
The scientific value is in the cite you provided. I’m merely backing that up. I have no idea what this attack on me is about, but you have failed to do anything but present yourself as a cynical, argumentative bitch. Your stupid, pointless, baseless argument ends here.
What are the street drugs that resemble the desiprimane and welbutrin? What are the effects of desiprimane and wellbutrin that are similar to them? Can you cite anything for yourself, or do you need me to do the work for you? The information I provided listed possible side effects of one drug, not the primary effect.
[/QUOTE]
Not here it doesn’t and I don’t think it does anywhere else. I work at the counseling center at an institute of higher learning. Our files are separate from the students’ other files and are confidential. It’s the law. It’s called HIPPA. The counseling staff won’t even type notes on a computer - they hand write them.
If you were an anorexic cutter with previous suicidal ideations, there would be NOTHING to prevent you from future success based on your dealings with mental health professionals at college.
You really need to educate yourself as to the difference between effects and side effects. My cite listed **84 ** side effects. All this means is that in studies some users have reported them. It does not mean that such effects are to be expected, merely that they are possible. For you to make this statement:
Some antidepressants have a similar mind-altering effect to certain street drugs. They’re definitely not something you can take and function normally while under the influence.
based on one personal experience and **without even knowing ** about the cite that I provided but which you claim as the **sole justification ** for your claim
is assinine.
Let’s see if we can sum up the gist of your support for your rather outrageous claim.
[ol]
[li]At some point in her life Kalhoun uses a drug which she later identifies as PCP.[/li][li]Later in her life Kalhoun is prescribed imipramine, which “reminds” her of PCP.[/li][li]Therefore, some antidepressants have mind altering effects similar to certain street drugs.[/li][/ol]
You have provided no evidence for this assertion other than one personal anecdote which resembles a side effect * of PCP, not the main effect. You have failed to identify any other drugs that share effects with street drugs, or the street drugs themselves. You have essentially claimed that any possible side effect of any drug should be expected * when using the drug. If the argument ends, it is because you have abandoned all pretense of reason and have reduced yourself to mindless blatheriing.
Correction: that should read side effect if imipramine.
Contrapuntal, with all due respect, I think you’re missing the point here. What I took Kalhoun’s point to be was for some of us, the side effects of some drugs are so bad they outweigh any positive effect the drug would have.
Look, what if I’d said Zoloft’s effect on me was like taking syrup of ipecac. In reality, I’d be wrong, since I think syrup of ipecac makes you vomit immediately, rather than 3 or 4 hours later like I did when I took Zoloft. On the other hand, in describing the general effect and why Zoloft is wrong for me, I’d be right. Side effects, or fear of them, are one reason people are reluctant to go on anti-depressants, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s a legitimate fear. If Zoloft were the only anti-depressant I’d tried and it weren’t as well known as it is, I might have gone off anti-depressants because a half dose, the starter dose, left me vomitting constantly and a quarter dose gave me heartburn. Kalhoun’s dislike of imipramine because of the effects it had on her is just as legitimate, regardless of how close it is or is not to an illegal hallucinogenic. Frankly, if it had that effect on me when I took it in 1992, I wouldn’t have stayed on it either.
CJ
Thanks, Siege…that’s precisely my point.
That may well be have been her point, but it is a far cry from what she said, and continued to say after being given many chances to clarify. To say that a side e****ffect of **one ** drug affects **some people ** in such a manner as to outweigh whatever positve effect it has is so different from this:
that it makes a claim of misunderstanding suspect, especially when you consider this:
She doesn’t even know which is which.
It goes without saying that that the side effects of some drugs make them inappropriate for some people; if **Kalhoun ** really meant that why did she make such a sweeping generalization about drugs for which she can provide no evidence? Why did she say that her doctor told her to keep taking imipramine even after she reported that it was like taking PCP. And why did she resort to comments like this?
I simply asked her which antidepressants resembled which street drugs, and for any cites she had to support her claim. Rather than state that I had misunderstood her, that she was really talking about one **side effect of one ** drug, and that she only knew this from personal experience, she has been bobbing and weaving and eqivocating, all interspersed with ad hominum attacks. The time to appeal to a simple misunderstanding has long passed, in my opinion.
If that’s what you got out of this whole exchange, you have the comprehension skills of a box of hair. You’re pathetic.