Exactly. Angus’ sire was Seabrook’s Tabu Don Juan, who was at one time the #4 Newfoundland in the US. His dam was out of Bacchanal Kennels, Madeira. Both Madeira and Don Juan were from long lines of champions, and both had no hip or other problems.
What we didn’t know until it was too late, was that Madeira just threw litter after litter of bad puppies. The breeder overbred her (at too young an age, IMHO), and so didn’t catch the problems until about three litters in.
The same went for Tristan’s parents, and Brendan’s- great dogs from great lines. The stats say that 98% of Newfs are affected. There’s just no way around it. Holly, OTOH, we rescued and I don’t know her lines offhand, but she seems straight as an arrow. Go figure.
Some breeders are now trying for a smaller Newf, but my vet disagrees, mostly with their reasons for it. They aren’t trying for less hip prblems, but for smaller-house-friendly Newfs. WTF?!? Don’t fuck with a giant breed if you want a Labrador! AUGH!
Well, I got the firstborn and female, but not the others. My mother says she was told it had something to do with her pelvic measurement being abnormally small. She was told her pelvic girth was too tight to give birth vaginally, and that my hip was somehow squished into an abnormal shape in utero because she was small inside. (She did give birth to me vaginally with forceps, but she was mighty determined and refused a c-section AMA.) Makes me go all kinds of :dubious: , and she suspects the doctors made it up to “punish” her for not allowing the c-section - like the guilt of deforming her baby with her body was justice, or something.
EJsGirl, nice sire. I found his pic online.
Coop’s sire is Evrmor’s UR The One, which means nothing to most people. His dam was only allowed to breed once, it was a problem litter & her owner didn’t want it repeated. Two long hair (an uncommon fault, and yes it’s a fault), one with SAS, one with some eye thing, two stillborn.
Having dysplasia (in dogs at any rate) doesn’t mean they’re compromised. Many dogs are mildly dysplastic and you’d never know it without xrays. Keeping them lean and fit can make the difference between symptomatic & asymptomatic.
But IMHO any dog that’s to be bred should be xrayed & tested for all the congenital faults in the breed…
Don’t know if the same should go for people, haha.
irishgirl, from one of your links:
Does anyone know what factors might influence normalization of joints as the kid grows? Just curious.
Smaller newf’s? Were the original newfs smaller than todays newfs? Maybe smaller newfs have less hip problems.
Anyway, I would love to have a newf, they look like giant teddy bears. To bad I live in the tropics.
bonobo_jones- normalisation of the joint as the child grows in mild DDH is sort of par for the course. The issue in DDH is that the acetabulum of the pelvis (the hip socket) is too shallow, if the acetabulum becomes deeper as the child grows, no more DDH.
The devices (double diapers in mild cases, Pavlik’s harnesses and various braces in more severe cases) that are used for the kids with severe DDH are designed to keep their femurs deeply placed in the acetabulum by splinting the legs, encouraging the acetabulum to grow normally around the femur, and prevent dislocation.
Sort like the way spinting a fraactur will allow the bones to unite properly, but leaving it unsplinted won’t in the majority of cases. However, an unsplinted fracture might still heal well if the fracture was mild and not displaced.
Sadly the fight between the breeders and now different registries is appalling. It has been going on awhile now and shows no signs of letting up. If these people ever found themselves in a room together they’d just beat the shit out of each other (I’m serious…the animosity is shocking). It’s so bad that even Wikpedia editors pretty much told all of them to just piss off as they were sick of it.
As a result I truly fear for the breed. Indeed some say it is almost impossible to call them a breed because no one can point to one place and say, “That is a Shiloh Shepherd” without someone else saying it is not so. Indeed some have split so completely as to form new “breeds” such as the King Shepherd (look familiar?).
That said I still go with the breed founder (Tina Barber) as the guardian of the breed. I have some real issues with how Ms. Barber handles herself and the breed publically but I am willing to put it down to her being a dog breeder and not a politician/public relations person. I think it is safe to say Ms. Barber put her heart and soul into developing this breed and can still be trusted see that quality animals are produced under her registry’s license. Her registry is the International Shiloh Shepherd Registry (ISSR). All others are some rebel off shoot (near as I can tell). Be warned that web site plays some sickeningly cheesy midi music for some reason that never ends…you might want to turn your speakers down :). From that page you can find licensed breeders.
I know all this crap is off putting and it really is sad because these dogs are truly magnificent. They have everything going for them…beauty, grace, intelligence, stable, biddable, loyal…pick a good adjective and the Shiloh is that and then some. Know that these dogs do not come cheap but in my view are worth every penny.
As soon as I start working as a veterinarian, I am definately owning one of these dogs. In vet school, I learn all these disorders that GSDs can get. It really is sad that a beautiful breed has been destroyed. I am willing to pay a good price for a shiloh puppy if it means that it will be healthy. So are they good gaurd dogs?
Funny you should mention becoming a vet as my vet was thrilled to meet a Shiloh (kidjanot). Obviously they see hundreds of wonderful animals but, I am guessing, the rarity of a Shiloh really jazzed her (them actually…the whole office seemed to manage to stop by and say hi on every visit…something they never did when we brought our cats in prior to having the dog).
I should note that while Shilohs have been bred to avoid the issues GSDs suffer from they are by no means immune to them. A carfeul buyer who pays attention to the bloodlines can certainly minimize the risk and Shilohs have been bred to minimize them but as with all things in life there is always a degree of uncertainty.
As for being good guard dogs I think they are among the best guard dogs. If you want something vicious as a guard dog then no…Shilohs are not what you want. What Shilohs possess is a natural affinity for their family. They bond deeply. Combine that with their innate intelligence (they really are nearly Einsteins of the domestic dog world…one or two breeds may beat them out but by and large they will be among the smartest dogs you ever see) and large size and you have a potent combination.
If you read the Wiki article linked earlier in this thread they touch on it. Shilohs combine a calm demeanor, high intelligence and stable personality that enables them to make independant decisions…and good ones at that. New situations are not something that freaks them out but rather are something to be considered. I swear you can see them thinking as they assess a new situation. No flying off the handle or running and hiding. I have seen this in action with my dog.
Keep in mind my dog was never trained explicitly to be a guard dog. I was walking her one night on a rather dark street in Chicago at 1 a.m. and a homeless person wandered out of an alley maybe 30 feet away and started to approach me (not random, I just happen to be going that way but locked eyes walking to me). Living in the city people are wandering all over the place and my dog takes little note and continues sniffing the fire hydrant. This time, of her own accord, she took note. After an initial glance up to see what was there she snapped into alert mode. She assumed something just shy of being overtly agressive. Her stance was solid, legs positioned to move her if needed. Ears straight up and pointed at the guy. Eyes locked unblinking at him. As he took a step closer there was an almost imperceptible quiver in her body and she seemed to tense just a tad more…next step the same. It is hard to describe really even if it is happening in front of you. It is just an unmistakable sense that this animal has you eyeballed and is an inch away from doing something you will not like…next move is yours. Maybe it is that animialisitc part of our brain that just identifies somethning that wants to eat us. Of course…a 100 pound German Shepherd looking dog backs up the implicit threat nicely. The homeless guy could not help but notice and stopped approaching. My dog never growled, I never said a word. Homeless in Chicago will usually get in your face begging for money…this guy calls out from 20 feet away if I have any money to which I answer “no”. He then walked the other way (usually they beg more not accepting the “no money” answer). My dog (I did nothing just to see what she would do) remained in her psychoceramic pose unmoving beyond keeping eyes locked on the guy. She watched him till he rounded the corner and then watched maybe another 30 seconds to see if he was coming back. After that she looked at me, I patted her and praised her and she went back to sniffing the ground.
I gave no command to the dog to do any of what she did. Maybe she could feel my unease and clued off of that but I think she just was able to assess this situation as different than the hundreds of other times people walk by her on the street. She behaved brilliantly in my view. No jump to rip someone’s throat out, no hiding behind my legs. Just a Clint Eastwood style, “Whatcha gonna do punk?” attitude while knowing she held her equivalent of a hand cannon (read big, nasty teeth) at the guy. I wondered during the whole thing when she might actually jump the guy if he persisted. While I do not know (never tested it with her but I am confident in this belief) I suspect threat or no she would not actually have attacked without some indication from me.
I believe any shepherd breed to be rather decent guard dogs. Just seems to go hand in hand with their shepherding instincts. I know shepherds are not flock guardians but still it seems a natural outgrowth of their herding instinct. Shepherds usually have a strong affinity for their “family”. They seem to know what is “theirs” be it sheep or kids or the pack leader human. As a result they tend to not run away or feel the ned to roam widely. Our GSD when growing up seemed to have a crystal clear notion of where the property lines of our house were drawn. On that property she’d chase things…off the property she barely notice (she’d chase rabbits to the edge of the property and stop literally at the property line).
Sorry this is a bit long but I am trying to give you a good idea of the Shiloh. If you want a snarling, snapping threat for a guard dog choose something else. If you want a dog that canmake its own decisions but remains fearless in protecting its family then the Shiloh is one of the better choices you can make. They are bred to be in the middle of a hard or soft dog. Hard breed might be an American Pit Bull Terrier. Soft breed might be a lab or Newf (sorry EJsGirl but every Newf I have met, while powerful as hell, are big softies…gentle giants to their core…not a bad thing by any means but a guard dog choice?..probably not).
Last thing, there is just an implicit threat when people see dogs like Dobermans or German Shepherds. Even if your dog is the biggest wimp on the planet most potential troublemakers do not know that. While studies have shown that any dog in a home lowers the chances of being robbed (even a Pug can act as an alarm by barking) it’d take a truly ballsey burglar to test a 100 pound shepherd staring at them intently.
Ok…last, last thing…Shilohs excel at training of any sort including Schutzhund training which is exceedingly demanding (think Police dog, bomb sniffer and so on). Few breeds can succeed in this arena. While this training does not make them a guard dog per se only those breeds which possess the intelligence, courage and temprament for these jobs pulls them off. It is no coincidence that you then find these very same breeds working with police, guarding military bases and so on.
Sorry for this extended hijack of this thread but this is somethin I am passionate about.
I guess I’m late to the party, since the discussion has gone over to dogs, but I technically had HD. The neck of my left femur was short. Nobody knew. I grew up hating to stand still for more than a few minutes. In my teens I started having serious problems with my kneecaps going out. The right one eventually stabilized, but the left never totally did.
By the time I got to an orthopedist for my hip, the knee was long past bad, but the ortho wouldn’t do the knee first. He said that the hip had wrecked the knee. (Besides, the first ortho had said I should try to wait until I was at least 60 to have the knee replaced. The 2nd one agreed.)
Soooo. Because back when I came along nobody knew to check on that stuff, I now have a metal hip and knee. At least they hardly ever hurt.
His dam was only allowed to breed once, it was a problem litter & her owner didn’t want it repeated. Two long hair (an uncommon fault, and yes it’s a fault), one with SAS, one with some eye thing, two stillborn. 
