I know, I know, there are way too many dogs out there, and the shelters are filled with homeless pets
I know all this, and probably if I did breed, I would keep them all, they are just so, so adorable, and this breed has usually under 3 pups, but, the question is…
I have a female papillon, and she is perfect, the tiniest, cutest, best tempered animal I’ve ever, ever owned. She fits the breed standard perfectly. She has no titles, because I don’t have the time or connections to do the dog show scene.
Does anyone else out there have a tiny (under 4 pounds) dog? Are there problems with puppybirth even if you get a tiny male?
I would rather neuter her than have her suffer in a terrible birth or something.
I would really like to breed her, but not if it would be detrimental to her health. Has anyone else out there bred a tiny dog? Did you have problems and why?
If you have to ask, then the answer is no. No, no, a thousand times no.
why?
I ask because I know there are way too many “good” dogs out there, for people to adopt, buy, etc.
What I’m asking asking is, is it dangerous for HER?
Probably not dangerous if you use the proper male. After all, that’s how your little dog got here, from little parents.
Do check with your veterinarian, as he/she will be able to give you a better answer. Also, your Vet may know the whereabouts of a good male to breed your dog to.
Well, getting her spayed (neutering is just for males) will reduce her risk of mammary tumors, as well as eliminating the risk of pyometra and ovarian and uterine cancers. Since she’s not a show dog and you don’t appear to know that much about dog breeding, I’d say you most certainly ought to get her spayed asap.
People who aren’t familiar with bloodlines and show standards, or who aren’t familiar with common medical problems associated with breeding a particular breed do NOT need to be having puppies. Breeding should only be done by those are well educated on the subject, for the sole purpose of improving the breed. Backyard breeders are the bane of my existence, so I’m a lot more stringent about this sort of thing than most people.
If you decide to go ahead-
a)Join your state specialist Papillon club, read, read and read more on the breed, it’s genetics, its problems and talk, talk and talk more to people who have been there done that.
b)Get your dog thoroughly vet checked for common genetic problems in pure bred Papillons. (eg hips and elbows).
c)Make sure you have plenty of cash for emergency vet bills for mother and/or pups, for vaccinations, tattoing, registration etc etc.
d)Make sure you have the proper physical environment to raise puppies ie kennels that can be kept hygienically clean ( half a dozen puppies with diarrhoea in a suburban backyard is not pleasant).
e)Be prepared to say no to buyers who don’t seem ‘right’
f)When you have all this sorted then you are ready to breed from your dog as a responsible dog breeder.
auliya -ex breeder and show-er of champion GSDs.
The risk of complications with toy breeds is very high. This is not something to be undertaken unless you know what you are doing and/or have an experienced breeder as your mentor.
Many toy breed pups need c-sections, and since birth usually takes place during the middle of the night, this will mean an expensive trip to the emergency vet. If mom doesn’t survive the birth, hand rearing pups will mean around the clock feedings by you for several weeks. You will not be able to work or spend any time out of the home if you want them to survive.
If mom and pups survive the birth, mom is very susceptible to eclampsia from low calcium levels due to suckling the pups. If not managed carefully, this leads to seizures and death for mom. Also, pups won’t be able to nurse anymore if mom has this problem, so back to you feeding them around the clock every couple hours. But you do not want her on calcium supplements during pregnancy, as this can lead to problems with bone formation.
To anyone who says that “Oh, dogs do this all the time in the wild”, I say bullshit. Any giant or toy breed dog, as well as one with unnatural body types like Bulldogs, has been bred so far from the norm by humans that they require special care in the birthing process. These are not dogs that would thrive on their own in the wild.
Lastly, if you are trying to reproduce your dog because she is so great, it’s not going to happen. If it were that easy to create a copy of a great animal, the horse racing industry would be full of nothing but Secretariats at this point.
Please don’t breed, you will not be doing yourself, your breed, or your dog any favors. If you love her, get her spayed, keep her safe, and enjoy the time you have with her.
Oh, and small dogs with relatively big heads (like Chihuahuas and Papillions) are somewhat predisposed to dystocia, so make sure you can afford a c-section at the emergency clinic before going ahead with the breeding. If you can’t afford to do a c-section and then treat for eclampsia and fading puppy disease, you can’t afford to breed your dog.
Some dog breeders have told me that, with all the vet bills, paperwork, puppy chow, and unexpected expenses, there’s rarely any real profit. It’s a labor of love, at best. With your dog’s lack of championships, it’s nearly guaranteed that you’ll lose money on the project.
I am not that familiar with Papillons, so I urge you to join a Papi list and discuss this with reputable Papi breeders. They will tell you the ins and outs of breeding and, I suspect, try to talk you out of it for many reasons already mentioned above.
Do a search on Yahoo groups for others. Consider going to a dog show and discussing this face-to-face with breeders as well.
If I was in the market for a Papi, I wouldn’t even consider untitled parents. You also don’t mention health testing. What’s her lineage? Do her ancestors have any titles? Health problems? Temperament problems? How are her knees? Her eyes? Is she tested for PRA? Is she CERF registered?
FYI, there are titles you can achieve other than show titles such as agility, obedience, and flyball. (Schutzhund too, heh.)
My two cents for any purebred animal, especially one with a radically altered body type such as a miniature breed, would be to only breed if you plan on becoming a breeder. Know the genetic disorders and reproductive problems and such that are common to the breed, so that you can avoid them. Know how to choose a sire so that you don’t choose one with problems that your dog doesn’t have.
One thing I know about any purebred breeding scene, whether it be dogs, cats, or horses, is that people are more likely to buy puppies from a well-known and established breeder, because they know that the breeder has done all her research, and won’t be selling them a pup who will develop health problems in future. This is a common problem with ‘backyard breeders’; German Shepherds end up with hip dysplasia, and Cocker Spaniels get this bizarre senility disorder.
So, if you plan on breeding you have to get into it whole hog, I think. It can’t just be a little ‘hey, let’s see what happens’ thing. And make sure you have plans for what to do with the puppies in case nobody will buy them from a new breeder. I think it’s best to be acquainted with the breeding business (and the peculiarities of it with respect to your own breed) before you jump in.
That mental image left me smiling. Thank-you.
arghh me too - the mind boggles 
a schutzhund trained Papillon
As a dog trainer and fancier, here’s my answer…
Mods, this is used with permission… it’s been circulating a long time among breeder circles, vets, and trainers like me. Edited down a tad for space reasons, and I took out the most gory details. I’ve seen some puppies born, and trust me, when things go wrong it really isn’t pretty… This was compiled years ago, if I mistake not, by breeders who shared their experiences breeding. Yes, if you talk to breeders of a specific breed, they have all heard of things like this happening to others… or themselves. A friend of mine, two years ago, lost her Toller bitch and her entire litter of pups… the mom didn’t make it through labor, and they couldn’t find a surrogate… and though they tried to raise the pups themselves, they all died within a week.
Full gory details here: http://www.doberescue.com/faq/items/16.html
Good luck, whatever you choose to do. Talk to a breeder in your breed, make sure you’ve got a mentor. A first litter can be a scary thing.
To follow up on a couple people’s comments on “reproducing your dog”, they’re perfectly right.
Genetics are tricky. There’s no way you would reproduce a litter of pups with your bitch’s temperament and conformation unless you know what you’re doing and THEN some. It would require careful line breeding, behind a common ancestor with the temperamental and conformation qualities you are after. Plus, there’s all the health issues, too - who knows what can crop up when some bloodlines mix and you don’t know what you’ve got on your hands…
If you’re really into your breed, and really into breeding, then get thee into a showring.
Remember, too, that your bitch MAY be conformationally perfectly fine (meets the breed standard almost perfectly) – you also have to consider what her own background is. Two pretty dogs pretty puppies do not necessarily make.
For example, an bitch from an outcross may look great, and be a BIG time winner [like my Zap!] but once bred will produce puppies that are just freakish… thems be the tricks of genetics. If Zap had been bred, for example, she would have been relatively closely linebred to “solidify” certain traits aquired by the outcrossing, behind a common ancestor with characteristics to offset her minor faults,etc… First step in breeding right: recognizing your dog’s faults and breeding to eliminate those faults without introducing new ones (or introducing “defects”, either!)
Your outcrossed conformation winner may throw puppies that look like chiuauas. Or for all you know, cleft palates. The male you bred to may be in the same situation. Or even worse, your pup may be a carrier of a genetic defect common to her lines…and woah, you’ve bred to a boy who has the same gene… and voila, a whole litter of PRA affected puppies (as an example)…
No, breeding isn’t for the faint of heart. Do your pet a favor - get her spayed… it’s not worth the dangers you’d be putting her through. If you want another pup just like the one you have, then go to a reputable breeder - one who will give you all the health guarantees, who will be there for you when you have questions like these, who will shepherd you in the showring, who will be sure to pick a puppy for you… one who is much like the one you currently have, temperamentally speaking…
Off the soapbox…
Elly
Leave it to those who are experienced and committed.
My late friend Bill made this page:
http://home.att.net/~wtbr/penelope/penelope.html
If you do go ahead and breed, do what others have said: make sure you have an exhuastive knowledge of the pyshical and personality traits of your dog’s bloodlines, and those of the sire, too. If there is anything fishy, don’t go ahead. Be incredibly picky about who gets to adopt. Make them sign something that says they will not breed their pups. And please be sure you do what our breeder did: she said if there were any problems with our basset hound (we couldn’t keep him, we changed our minds) we should call her and she would take him back. She never wanted to see him in a shelter. If you’re not willing to raise every pup yourself (if things don’t work out with the owners) then don’t do it.
It’s great how much you love your dog. I love my dogs too. I adore them and dote on them.
Please don’t breed your dog. Instead rescue a purebred Papillon that would otherwise be euthanized.
Here is a rescue organization dedicated to purebred Papillons. Look at the dogs available for adoption - they are beautiful.
http://papillonclub.org/rescue/availdogs.html
If you want another dog, contact them. Many people think only mutts are available for adoption. Not so. These dogs will be purebred, and have papers. One of these dogs needs you!
Eeegads you all have a lot of horror stories!
I have studied the standard for Papillons, and read up on all the AKC and the local clubs website. There haven’t been any dog shows in my area recently, so I haven’t made it to my first one.
I would join the local club, but you need to have someone that’s already in the club sponsor you. That means making it to the shows and getting on the “in’s” with people that are already members. I will try to make it to the next show that is in my area though.
In answer to some of you all’s points,
Yes, I have enough money for medical care, I have no dependants and make decent money. I also realize I’m not “cloning” the dog, her pups would be different from her, obviously. And take my word, I am not faint of heart.
No, I’ve never done this before, despite having animals all my life, I’ve never contributed to the over-population of pets. I’ve also never contributed to the human population, (maybe thats why I’m even considering going thru this?) Yes, I can keep them ALL!
No, I would never be so stupid as to think I could make money off raising dogs. If that were the case, I’d get a type of dog that had 13 puppies, not 1-3. The medical expenses far exceed anything you could charge anyone to buy them.
My dog never goes out unsupervised, even into the back yard, which by the way has a 6 foot privacy fence. Lets see some four legged romeo jump that!
She is however the smallest dog I have ever owned. All my other dogs were large, 60-95 pound critters. I was hoping to hear from other people who had bred tiny dogs, I can’t imagine how small the puppies would have to be, they would be like, mice or something. And does being so small, inherently make them weak?
Jesus, I’m surprised people manage to reproduce, let alone dogs!