Huh??? I consider these two things as a very reasonnable behavior…
well, for me, it wasn’t a classic ‘stranger’ rape, since by the account, they’d spent several hours together. To me, ‘stranger’ rape is some one you absolutely don’ t know, grabbing you from th bushes, breaking in your house etc.
Hi, wring -
It always struck me that stranger rapes were more easily avoidable. Travel in groups, carry Mace, don’t hitch hike, all that Rape Avoidance 101 I covered in my women’s self defense classes.
Date or acquaintance rape I thought of as harder to avoid. If you got the right vibes from someone to the point that you were willing to see him socially, I expected it to come as more of a surprise when Mr. Right turned into a rapist.
Now I read the OP, with its numerous instances of people doing really dumb things, and having it turn out as badly as can be imagined. And coming under the heading (apparently) of a date rape.
Which is where my part of the “blame the victim” problem comes in. It is really hard for me, as a former hand-to-hand instructor, to read the circumstances of the OP and not be shaking my head and saying to myself that no social changes likely to be implemented would be able to stop women from being raped if they do enough stupid stuff.
It is hard enough not to blame the victim. Especially if the first thing into my head is “didn’t your mother teach you anything?”
Regards,
Shodan
well, Shodan, I’m now 47, mother of an 18 year old young male, and I can frankly still recall my college years - it wasn’t at all inconceivable that you’d go out w/a group of friends, hook up with another group and go from place to place. THe getting to and from wouldn’t necessarily be in the same cars each time, so I had no problem seeing the ‘getting into the car’ gig.
the going to the hotel room - is a bit dicier for me. I don’t recall agreeing to go to some one’s house w/in hours of meeting them.
but, again, when you’re meeting them at a place where you think ‘only cool folk would be here, cool folk like me, for instance, and people just like me…’.
I started a thread a few days ago about a call I’d gotten from a client type person, who called, asking if I knew “Frank” (not his real name), then she went on to say that he was her boyfriend, that she didn’t know his last name…
And, again, with GHB available, some one just sitting near you in a public place can drug you.
Yes, they acted in a manner which wasn’t completely safe. But, I would also suggest that at any point in time, it’s pretty damned common for young people to wander off in a car together, and I don’t think it’s such a big stretch for a ‘I have to stop here to get my coat’ or whatever.
Keep in mind, too, that w/date/acquaintence rape, there’s a couple of different possabilities -
in one scenario, the rapist doesn’t view what is going on as non consensual (the ‘no’ doesn’t mean no, she obviously wants it, after all, she had to know that’s what I meant by ‘wanna come meet Eminmem?’)
IN another, he totally understands that his intentions are to have intercourse (the woman’s desires are immaterial) and it’s in his best interest to come across as a nice guy, seductive not pushy.
Hi, wring -
I am older than you, and can still remember my college days. (Where I parked my car is another matter.)
I am also probably a great deal larger than you, male, a black belt, and I would still not get into a car with four strangers, in NYC, who were so obviously feeding me a line. Nor would I recommend it to any female with enough self-regard to want to be safe.
That way, neither of the two scenarios you mention would come into play.
The “GHB in a public place” comes under the heading of stranger rape, as far as I can tell. If it is at all common, which I woud doubt.
I don’t know if it is because I am old, a guy, or just hopelessly out of it, but someone who has a boyfriend but doesn’t know his last name strikes me much the same way as “well, they seemed like nice guys, and they said they could get us backstage…” I’m too flabbergasted at someone so clearly out of the loop to know how to begin addressing them.
Same thing as someone who doesn’t grasp that no means no. They don’t seem to be the same species as me.
Perhaps a better means of communication would be a sharp smack upside the head, or a nice, long prison sentence.
Or better still, fifty cents worth of electricity, or a two dollar shotgun shell.
Regards,
Shodan
When I was in college, a young women and a group of her friends went to a Gin Blossoms’ concert on campus. She began to feel sick, apparently not from drinking, but from a flu that had been going around. She asked several different ones to walk her back to her room and none would leave the concert to do so. She decide to walk the two short blocks across a well lit campus to her room. The total distance was about a sixth of a mile. In the parking lot outside of the gym where the concert was being held, a fellow student, she knew but was not close to, pulled her into an empty shuttle bus and raped her. When he left she immediately reported the rape.
These were the facts as reported by several of her fellow students who were angry with her for trying to get the guy in trouble. These students all agreed that by walking alone on campus she took the risk and if she did not want to get raped, she shouldnot have walked across campus alone at night. Also, since he was more popular than she was she should have been grateful for his attention.
I reject that she was at fault and I find the thinking that takes responsibility from the crime perpatrato and hands it to the victim odius. We need to stop focusing on blaming the victim and thus making women in certain situations “fair game” for the rapist. If we made it clear as a society that this will not be tolerated, maybe fewer women would be raped. By blaming these women for taking risks we are snding the message to rapists that these womein are fair targets.
Some rapists might even think that Heck if it is inevitable that a woman out alone will be raped, he’s doing a favor by teaching her a lesson, because at least he won’t kill her like some would.
Do you know that? For sure? Because I know a lot of women (I go to a women’s school, so practically everyone I know is a woman), and I don’t think there are any for whom “fear and restriction” is not an issue. What they do about it varies from “I must never step outside after dark” to “Whatever precautions I take I’ll end up getting raped anyway, so I might as well just get really drunk so I won’t remember it much”, but there is always the knowledge that we as women have to face danger that men do not, and that our lives are restricted in ways that men’s are not. This isn’t something women talk about with men a lot, perhaps because so many men want to deny that the problem exists or blame it all on us.
Please tell me there were no female classmates arguing that… though I dread the answer.
lee’s example sounds like a stranger rape to me. I also react to those who claimed that walking home alone is a sign that “she wanted to be raped” with the same mixture of confusion and contempt as I do to date rapists who think that the fact that she came up to his apartment means that she better put out one way or other.
But going home from a concert because you are sick is (in my opinion) qualitatively different from the circumstances of the OP. As I have said, I am at much lower risk of being raped or otherwise assaulted than the average woman, and I still wouldn’t get into a car when I was drunk with people I didn’t know. Especially if they had expressed an admiration for a violent, misogynistic performer like Eminem.
And it doesn’t feel all that restrictive to be a person who is subject to limitations on my behavior like “don’t get into a car with rap fans”. Rules like that apply to men and women alike.
Nobody deserves to be raped. But that doesn’t mean acting stupid is a good idea.
Regards,
Shodan
Well, I’m with you on the traveling alone thing, but most Americans, even males, would regard picking up hitchhikers as a major risk. Different culture here – hitchhiking is rare, and most of the folks who do hitchhike are seriously scary.
Well, wring, I think you’re framing the issue here. In a vacuum of course these aren’t bad decisions at all, but I can think of some instances where these would be unreasonable. First date? Do you know the person at all? Do any of your friends know the person? And so on. I mean, when McDonalds is more discerning about the people they hire than someone is about who they date I must pay strict attention: what is the motivation behind this carefree attitude? Are they the same way about their checkbook, bank statements, credit, or other personal affects? Strange what we would put much diligence into and what not. And I’m not accusing, just wondering.
I don’t think women have to live in fear, but I say this as a man. I will freely admit that this presents a huge stumbling block for anything I want to say. I want to reiterate my concern for not blaming the victim. But I don’t want to downplay the idea that what is or is not reasonable behavior is context and time-dependent. What was safe in the 50’s isn’t strictly safe today… for anyone.
I cannot say that it is always reasonable for a person to get into another person’s car that they do not know. Sometimes things can’t be avoided, sometimes they can but only at great cost, sometimes it just “feels ok.” However we make our decisions, we each make them.
A refusal by women to accept that certain behavior will present an increase in possible risk to women because the behavior “shouldn’t” be risky is even more risky, to me. A false sense of security is only called so in hindsight, and in the cases we are discussing this hindsight is a painful one. Though there is a case of acting unreasonably towards the safe end of the spectrum as well.
Is it your opinion as well that what would create [what you would feel is] a reasonable comfort level is itself unreasonable behavior? You have said that the behaviors themselves (not getting into cars etc) were reasonable all by themselves… and I agree, but only in most cases. In most cases we are travelling with close friends and family and so on, so we never even think twice about it. I would say that “never thinking twice about it” indicates reasonable behavior in the general case (and I don’t mean based in logic, but based in societal norms [beyond a reasonable doubt, for example, isn’t a statement of a formal logic system!]).
Can reasonable behavior still be negligent (as defined there)? Well, sure. Is this the case with most rapes? I have no idea. But just because I don’t blame the victim doesn’t mean I can’t ask these questions. I think they are important. I would think a woman would think they were even more important than me for obvious reasons. You know?
The thing is, that behavoir that can be defined as “negligant” covers a lot of ground for women. People get raped so often, under so many conditions, that the things that put you at risk are just about everything.
Going home from a concert when you are sick. Drinking any beverage anywhere (after all, who knows what they could slip into the water at a taquaria or the local burger joint). Twelve or so hours of the day are off limits. Being alone just about anywhere, as well as working jobs or taking classes that might lead you to walk alone to the parking lot or something like that. Being in the city. Being in the country. Being with a man. Being with a group of men. Being only with other women. Being alone.
All of these can, and have, led to somebody being raped. All of these can count as risky behavoirs.
So why is it that when we talk about people making “stupid decisions” we specifically talk about things that good girls don’t do- like drinking or wearing short skirts or going to a guy’s hotel room. Do I see some bias here? Why don’t we ever say that the girl who walked from her office to her parking spot was taking “unreasonable risk”? She got raped just as sure as the girl who drank half a bottle of tequila and and went home with a guy. We claim that they are “qualitively different situations”, but the only difference is whether the woman was acting within the bounds of what we consider to be acceptable behavoir for women or not.
And that is crap. That is the same crap as “a woman should be able to get an abortion but only if she didn’t willingly have sex”. We really don’t need to sit around making up consequences for women that don’t act like we want them to.
I don’t know what behavior can be defined as negligent, that’s the point.
sven, I love ya, but this list is as complete for robbery, kidnaping, or murder as it is for rape. The mere existence of possibility only serves to illustrate what everyone knows: there is no such thing as “perfectly safe”. The question that needs to be asked is: what reasonable precautions can I take? And then when that is answered: and then is it still necessary for me to fear rape as an imminent possibility?
I understand that some women do fear it as such. But don’t tell me I’m making up consequences for women just because I want to investigate what sort of precautions are reasonable and what their real effects are.
Well, I see some.
Nonsense. “Risky” means “high risk”. If you don’t engage in high-risk behavior, you reduce your risk of suffering whatever bad consequence you want to avoid. Not to zero, that isn’t possible. But as low as you can mention it.
It is possible that I will get killed by a car crashing thru my living room wall. Does this mean that sitting in my living room is just as foolish as getting drunk and driving without my seat belt? It is possible to be raped, even if you didn’t do anything “wrong”. Does this imply there is no difference in risk between the nun in the convent and some drunken teen-age hitch hiker slurring “Hell yes, you can give me a ride” and passing out in the back seat?
Because one of the reasons that good girls don’t do stupid things is that the things are, well, stupid. Because they increase risk beyond what a reasonable person would define as acceptable.
No one is making up consequences, and none of this excuses the rapists. But the world is not a safe place, and it never will be, and the best you can hope for is play the odds.
And putting the rent money on the fifty-to-one shot does not become a good idea because nobody deserves to lose their apartment for making one bad bet.
Regards,
Shodan
Darn - for ‘mention’, read ‘manage’.
I’m with you on this one, even. Although few people are willing to admit it outright, the view that rape is a suitable punishment for women who behave in certain socially unacceptable ways seems widespread.
There is zero evidence that wearing a miniskirt increases a woman’s real chances of being raped. In cases of stranger rape it may do the opposite – such rapists generally seek out women who look timid and helpless, not sexy and confident. Yet a rape victim who was dressed “like a slut” is going to get a lot less sympathy than one who was dressed “like a nice girl”. The thought process at work here is not really “A rapist sees too many square inches of skin and can’t control himself” but rather “She shouldn’t show that much skin because it is socially unacceptable, and if it takes being raped and then being blamed for the rape to teach her that lesson then so be it.”
I know this is true because, despite being very sensitive about the subject of sexual assault, despite my anger at any who would commit such crimes, and despite my belief that no woman deserves the pain of sexual victimization, I have had thoughts very similar to these myself. I have looked at a classmate who wore very skimpy outfits to lectures and flirted openly with male professors and said to myself “We’ll see how Miss La-De-Da-Miniskirt acts after some frat boy rapes her!” I’m not proud of this, I offer no defense for it, and I would never, ever blame this young woman or any other for an actual rape, but the thought was there – the thought that a woman who was behaving in a way I considered improper could be put back in her place with the punishment of rape.
You are often very knowledgeable about issues involving sexuality, Lamia. Do you know what evidence indicates is going to increase the chance of being raped that wouldn’t be considered “a good idea” already?
!!! Also
Then do you feel that those ads “This is not an invitation to rape” with scantily-clad shots of women were actually counter-productive? By that I mean: is it possible we’ve placed the idea that there is a causal relationship here that we are really trying to counter when there was no relationship at all, effectively creating one?
Though, on reflection, I think those ads applied more to date rape.
Well, I can’t answer your specific question because I don’t know what sorts of things you would consider to be a good idea. I can answer the question, “What can a woman do to decrease her chances of being raped?” by saying that a woman who attempts some form of resistance when assaulted (be it physical resistance or something non-violent like screaming for help or running away) is more likely to escape rape than a woman who does not.
Sometimes responsibility can be shared w/o lessening it. Can’t remember the book, but it was on women’s self defence and it noted crime statistics of women who were assaulted after making choices they knew were bad.
ie: Late at night you are getting on elevator alone and there is creepy guy there who happens to be a minority. You get creepy vibe, but you think to yourself “I’m just being racist, or I don’t want to look like a racist.” so you get on anyhow. The reason guyt gave off creepy vide wasn’t that he was black or whatever, it was because he was genuinely creepy. This does not lessen his culpability, but it does mean people should know enough to listen to instincts.
Women all the time repeat bad relationship descisions. Everyone knows girl who has been beaten by three boyfriends. Does not make abusive boyfriend less of an asshole, but tell me it isn’t annoying to have friend always bitching about it. Hey, I have an idea, stop dating psychos.
Rape is a bit of a tricky one, but there is room for stupidity here as well. Easy example is when someons slips you that stuff in your drink that makes you pass out. Tip: Don’t take drinks from strangers, or if you do make sure sober friend is waqtching you back. Other advice, don’t be in bad neighborhood if you can help it, don’t meet strangers at night, etc. None of this diminished bad persons’ responsibility, but it is still dumbass move to do these things. Hitch-hiking is another dumbass move.
Lots of ways to get yourself offed, raped, stolen from, etc. Don’t go looking for a disadvantage.