Do sexual preferences make one a bigot?

In this case the type of bigotry would not technically be racism but colorism. In common modern parlance there is no distinction, and colorism is synonymous with racism. But your objection seems to be, if a color preference transcends racial lines it cannot be bigotry - note that colorism is bigotry in its own right, independent of racial discrimination.

The preeminent example in American history is the brown paper bag test, as in, if a slave’s skin is lighter than this brown paper bag he or she is allowed to sleep inside. Most races (including African Americans) have some people with a skin tone lighter than the brown paper bag, but we still consider the test to be a form of bigotry.

~Max

Lol. The reason begins with an r and ends with an m…

Sounds like you think any preference at all is bigotry. What about preferences based on weight or age or even attractiveness in general?

Well… as I was saying with MrDibble I don’t think it’s so absolute when the act in question is simply going on a date rather than actual sex. I think, under no circumstance is it morally wrong to refuse sex. (I could imagine contrived situations like you are the last couple alive but for all intents and purposes…) But there are situations where I think it would be morally wrong to refuse a date, even if you find them unattractive. Of course it isn’t fair to the date, but there may be other counterfactors in play. You might ‘owe’ someone, it might be a double date, etc. The motivation for your refusing is important because you do not have the absolute moral right to refuse.

I’m primarily concerned with the question of whether the preference is, itself, a form of bigotry.

~Max

I find it a little funny that you chose that example- because the people I know with “colorist” preferences actually prefer the opposite situation.
They are not attracted to people with light skin ( or light eyes, or blonde hair for that matter). But I’m not sure how that’s different from a man who is more attracted to women with small breasts than those with large breasts or a woman who is more attracted to skinny men than muscular men. I don’t see how any preference can be bigoted unless every preference is bigoted. Sure it’s possible for some individual person’s preferences to be based on bigotry - but just one person’s preference for a particular skin tone might be based on bigotry doesn’t mean everyone with such a preference is basing it on bigotry.

Why in the world would that be immoral? Isn’t the purpose of a date to explore the possibility of a romantic and /or sexual relationship? And if I agree to date A because I owe B a favor, aren’t I treating A as an object which can certainly be seen as immoral in itself.?

I disagree strongly. You have the absolute moral right to freely choose who you associate with and how closely in a social situation. Whether that is just in terms of being “friends” or some kind of formal dating situation.

You do indeed have a moral right to refuse. You also have an associated moral duty (I believe) to treat people with respect and kindness.

Incels feel the same way, just saying, is that the intellectual company you want to be keeping?

Yes, you absolutely do.

Bigotry and prejudices are not synonymous… a bigot is someone (men generally) of pious self-righteousness that preaches superiority within a specific class of people and actively pursues converting others to their way of thinking/living. If I remember correctly they are generally politically situated and religiously denominated. They are usually misogynistic and entirely exclusive.

You know, minus a cite, that’s hilarious.

I’m not sure how this comment can be improved upon.

The right to control one’s sexual consent trumps everything. Literally everything. No moral or ethical concern lies above it. It is abhorrent to advocate otherwise. Is someone a bigot for refusing to sleep with a person of a certain race? Yeah, but it’s okay for them to do that. Their loss, but it’s their loss to choose.

I think one of the reasons this debate crops up is because in liberal democratic societies we have struggled with issues of bigotry and legal inequality, and have arrived at a point where such things are correctly seen as thing to be avoided at all costs. But, actually, there ARE some costs that are too much to pay, and control over one’s own body is one of those.

Lordy, lord - I was wondering why this one cropped up again, as i recalled it as one where Max_s just didn’t reply any more, a sure sign that he had no more justification for his terrible stance that there are situations where people can ever not refuse sexual acts. Even if they are “less-sexual” ones.

I’m late to this thread, but that is an excellent way of framing it. Racial preferences for sexual partners may or may not be bigoted, but it doesn’t matter. Sexual/bodily autonomy is more important.

I had received a warning on a related subject, and decided I would rather not continue with my arguments here and risk another one.

~Max

Of course, you could have actually said that here, then.

But that reply sounds like you do still think that your terrible stance is still defensible, you’re just not capable of doing so civilly.

To which the only appropriate response would be :grimacing:.

And this is my point of disagreement. Sure, we can’t force someone to date (a general term I will use for sex, romance, etc) with someone. There is an absolutely right of refusal. But you guys are acting like that’s the end of the conversation. And I don’t agree it is. There’s no reason that fighting the racism, even at the individual level, has to mean forcing them to date any particular person.

For example, we can do what we normally do with people who show signs of racism. If we notice someone who seems to categorically reject dating any black person, we can talk with them to confirm our suspicions. We can then try to convince them of what we see. We can discuss why such preferences are harmful and why they should try to open their mind by exposing themselves to various attractive people of the race they don’t prefer. We can push them to confront prejudices and biases.

And if it’s a pattern of bigotry, we also have the bigger guns at our disposal with those who are particularly stubborn. We can refuse to interact with them when they act that way. We can tell other people about how they act. We can scold. We can provide consequences ourselves and encourage others to do so.

None of this requires pressuring someone to date any particular individual. I agree that that is sacrosanct. Where I disagree is that this makes this sort of racism something that can’t be dealt with. And I disagree that we can do so at a societal level without inherently doing so at an individual level, as society is made up of individuals.

I don’t disagree that aesthetics are the interaction of the individual and the culture. But the culture is a necessary part, and you will not wind up aligning with the bigotries of a culture without that bigotry having influenced that preference to some degree. And, when such an aesthetic preference affects others, I believe we have a duty to try and combat it. What we find beautiful is largely influenced by exposure, so we should then expose ourselves to things that go outside our usual aesthetic comfort zone. Or, to put it in a practical way: someone who finds they don’t find black women attractive (but do find women of other races attractive) should be exposing themselves to more beautiful black women. In fact, this is something I personally had to do.

I do not agree, however, that sexuality works the same way. If it did, then the above argument would apply. At least some of our sexual preferences would be created by culture and we would have an obligation to try and overcome that. However, the fact that things like conversion therapy or actively trying to make yourself not gay don’t work show that it isn’t the same. There is something that is biologically innate involved in sexuality that is not so for aesthetic preferences.

I reject the idea that, say, finding dark skin unattractive is the same as, say, not finding women attractive. There is a difference here in how someone should react in that situation. One is something to try and correct, while the other isn’t.

Again, none of this means that any individual person should be able to dictate that I should be attracted to a particular individual, let alone that I should not have bodily autonomy and be able to reject them. I do think, however, that if I encounter someone who, say, has an Asian fetish, it’s okay for me to think that’s bad and try to encourage them to not do that. I would not think that if it was trying to encourage a gay guy to be attracted to women, however.

If the one is moral and the other not, then their nature must also be different in some way.

I am never a fan of anyone who argues “Yeah, that’s racist, but there’s nothing we can do about it,” which is what you seemed to be arguing.

You propose a level.of control and surveillance undreamed of by the worst tyrant.

No, it’s just pressuring them to date one of a group of individuals, and it’s wrong and morally reprehensible… Sexual consent and choice trumps everything. It is not something that is subject to question or pressure. It is wrong 100 percent of the time, without exception (assuming we are talking about a preference for consensual sex with adults) to pressure people to change their sexual preferences. Pressuring people to change their preferences is behaviour that has a long and sordid history of the vilest homophobia, religious bigotry, and misogyny, things it almost invariably leads to.

The reason we oppose racism and homophobia and such in employment, justice, commerce and the like is because in those situations, the bigot steps outside their sphere of personal choice to do harm. Sexual choice is purely within a person’s sphere of choice. They harm no one with their choices as long as they do not force themselves upon anyone. It is a line that cannot be crossed to tell someone their sexual preferences (with other willing adults) are wrong. To do so has a simple two-word description; it’s rape culture.

This is nice and all, and I don’t disagree with the fundamental point that we can try and reach out to individuals with crap aesthetic senses. If that was what it looked like I was saying, I apologize for writing it so it seemed I thought what I was talking about was a particular one-on-one relationship. I was talking about the overall views. At no point was I talking about making someone date one particular individual.

However, having said that, my point with this question:

was - what do you do when the individual in question does not agree to sit down for your “Why your aesthetics are wrong” slideshow and 12-part lecture series? As most would.

And you come to the same conclusion I do. Basically, your “refuse to interact …tell other people…scold.” is my “change society to make such bigotry untenable.” Because at the moment, society does not ostracise such individuals.

I disagree with this. Some sexual preferences (like extreme paraphilias, for instance, or sex addiction) are unhealthy and we try and change those all the time, and should, even though everyone’s consenting.

I think most aesthetic disdain for dark skin lies at the same end of the spectrum as those paraphilias (paraphobia?) - an unhealthy misdevelopment of an individual’s sexuality. Not all of it, as I am certain it can be a neutral aesthetic choice. But let’s be real here - it mostly isn’t, it’s cultural, and it can be changed.

Tell that to women in India who get murdered or suicide for being considered unattractive for their dark skin.

This is bullshit misappropriation of the term. And quite frankly, a monumetally offensive thing to say (at least, I find it monumentally offensive, as a rape survivor)

I’m not sure sex addiction is a “preference,” but okay; still, that’s a matter between the person and a therapist. It’s not for me to tell you how much you should have sex.

Murder is not consensual sex, last I checked. Suicide is not a sexual preference. Honestly, TWICE I went to the trouble of specifying that of course I am referring to consensual sex even though I was thinking “I mean, surely people will assume this - well, no, someone will probably let this fly over their head” and you introduce murder. Yeah, that’s not a consensual sex act or a sexual preference.

No, it’s just true. Telling people they don’t have the right to sexual autonomy is the foundation of rape culture. Telling people their sexual preferences are wrong (do I need to again specific that I am referring to consensual sex between adults and not murder, genocide, or bank robbery?) is disgusting.

How do you think most people end up seeing therapists, if not social pressure of some sort?

What the actual fuck are you talking about? Did I say either was? No, I did not.

Murder and suicide are the harms that result from what you were calling a completely harmless choice. As though sexual preferences were all masturbatory and didn’t impact society at all.

Doubling down on a bullshit statement doesn’t make it any less bullshit or any more true.

And here I thought it was all that actual rape.

Naah. People need their kinks examined, and if they have ugly roots, they need to face those, whether it’s colourism or schoolgirl fetishes or plain old misogyny.

Note I’m not saying anyone should be forced to do anything. But “freak freely” is the kind of bullshit abusers hide behind.

“Freak feely”?