Do Some Folks Just Not Accept the Concept of “giving up on people”?

Reading through various threads touching on the subject of “interacting with right-wingers, Trumpers, election-deniers, etc.” I realize that many people don’t see things the way I do, which is to give them a number of chances to persuade me they are sincere, genuinely holding policy positions that make sense to them, and so on, before I conclude that they are insincere trolls, racists, morons, provocateurs, and therefore no longer warrant my granting them the courtesy of hearing them out and responding to them with patience and civility—permanently.

In other words, I try to allow a certain latitude, but once we’ve crossed that point and I’ve concluded that they are not simply people with whom I hold a difference of opinion but bad people, I just give up on them.

For certain people, whom I would characterize as “dupes” or “marks” for the most part, this concept simply doesn’t exist. No one is irreclaimable, they claim. You can always make an argument that turns someone around, they say. Or, at worst, “people can change,” so you never want to give up on anyone.

To me, this may be technically true, or impossible to demonstrate the falsifiability of, but life is short. Reluctantly, I concede that I simply have enemies in this world, that people exist who are twisted, evil, often crazy, permanently deformed, and for all practical purposes, irredeemably so.

Now, it may simply be the case that I have a lower threshold for judging when someone has crossed the line of irredeemability and a greater sense of skepticism (or maybe a higher sensitivity to accusations of being a dupe myself) but I would argue that, in essence, there are those like me who accept the concept (and practice) of giving up on people relatively easily, and those who prefer to believe that no such concept exists. Of course, I’m excluding the middle ground, which many would claim they stand on, claiming “it exists but only in rare cases and after much testing of the waters,” and so on and most people would put themselves into this middle category rather than see themselves as dupes or marks but I think that’s mostly self-serving wishiwashiness.

Do you agree that “giving up on people” is a useful, productive, efficient way to run your life? It may have painful consequences (losing people with whom you’ve been friendly in the past, for example) but I think those consequences are less costly in the long run than the alternative.

I’ve found that dealing with people like that is very much like dealing with an addict. Reason just isn’t going to get through to them. Sometimes you have to just let them go from your life or just leave a conversation. Sadly, extremism has infected the entire political spectrum and I’ve lost people in my life to both right and left wing extremism and toxicity. It feels a lot like someone dying, which is essentially true because whoever they were before they adopted an extremist mindset is gone. It’s like the infected in The Last of Us.

I’ll give someone a fair shake to give them a chance to speak with reason and in good faith. When they display these weird disingenuous tactics, I just walk away. Let them think they’ve “won” something that was never a competition in the first place. Whatever…not worth my time anymore.

the key distinction may lie in seeing giving up as a virtue or as a failure.

If I may be forgiven for contributing a little parable, perhaps not quite up to the usual GD standard:

The donkey told the tiger, “The grass is blue.”
The tiger replied, “No, the grass is green .”
The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, so they approached the lion.
As they approached the lion on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ''Your Highness, isn’t it true that the grass is blue?"
The lion replied: “If you believe it is true, the grass is blue.”
The donkey rushed forward and continued: ''The tiger disagrees with me, contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him."
The king then declared: ''The tiger will be punished with 3 days of silence."
The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating ''The grass is blue, the grass is blue…"
The tiger asked the lion, “Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?”
The lion replied, ''You’ve known and seen the grass is green."
The tiger asked, ''So why do you punish me?"
The lion replied, “That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is degrading for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with an ass, and on top of that, you came and bothered me with that question just to validate something you already knew was true!”
The biggest waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn’t care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense. There are people who, for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand. Others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t.
When IGNORANCE SCREAMS, intelligence moves on.

and – potentially – to elevate the post just a smidgen:

“A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.”

–Winston Churchill

I have to post another one :wink:

I used to participate, long ago, on a newsgroup for a particular medical issue.

There was a guy there – retired engineer (“Otis”) – who had the certitude, tenacity, and resolve of a religious zealot, absolutely certain that engineering applied one-for-one to the human body.

Eventually, a long-time lurker posted the following:

You know, I really enjoy following these exchanges. It’s entertaining watching someone continue to embarass themselves and just keep coming back for more. Kind of reminds me of my brother talking about ‘ferret bowling’ - he used to have a pet ferret - he’d fling it down the hall like a bowling ball (I guess ‘curling rock’ would be more apt), and watch it go whap into the wall at the end, only to run right back, waiting for more.
Hey, Otis - whap!!"

Some people just cannot tolerate letting falsehood go uncorrected.

It is totally the smart way to run one’s life.


It is an addiction. The peddlers of propaganda know exactly how to create an addictive product that triggers the rage/dopamine centers of the brain. The adherents to the propaganda are no less addicted than those who smoke nicotine or eat or shoot opioids.

And just like treating traditional addiction, the addict cannot be changed by any external force. They will change when and only when they decide to. Which usually requires they hit what they consider to be “rock bottom.” Meanwhile they will destroy everything and everyone around them in pursuit of feeding their addiction.

I see no reason to stand around to be a target of their destruction.


Agreed. But I think a better way to say that is to recast the terminology.

“Giving up” is a very loaded set of words for the person doing it. It has very strong pejorative tones. Heck, if someone says “I’ve given up beating my spouse”, in some sense that’s a sign of them admitting a failure in their spouse-beating. Despite the unvarnished good that comes from actually stopping beating your spouse, that phraseology casts stopping in a bad light.

I don’t “give up” on propaganda / rage addicts. I simply “remove them from my life”. Or “adandon them to their delusions”.

By recasting my action as a positive for me, I no longer feel a reason to beat my head against their rock to avoid a sense of personal failure, of “giving up”, when what I would really be doing by continuing to engage is failing much more greatly by pissing them off, frustrating me, and still achieving no change in them.

Said another way: “What a peculiar game; the only way to win is not to play.” Once you internalize that, not playing is victory, not defeat.

Said yet another way “He doesn’t suffer fools gladly” is a compliment, not an insult. Live your life so as to be complimented for your interpersonal wisdom, not so you’ll be consumed by others’ interpersonal stupidity.


Your whole post was beautiful. It doesn’t need further elevation, it was elevated all along.

But this last bit is too good not to quote for emphasis.

I will add one key point - it makes a huge difference if someone’s ignorance is actively harming others.

When it comes to correcting anti-vaxxers, for instance, it’s not just that they’re annoying - their lies are actively harming people. There’s good reason NOT to give up on combating such people.

The most difficult thing is that this principle applies equally to family.

It depends on who they are, right? If its an acquaintance, hell yes I’m going to give up pretty quickly. No one is served by constantly have to put up with their bullshit, you aren’t going to convince them, and arguing online (or in person) is no way to spend your life. Have a good life, enjoy your Trumpian utopian future where Trump is going to stick it to the libs and solve all your problems for you.

If they are a close friend I will stick it out longer (and be willing to just stop discussing politics if they don’t cross line from rightwing BS to outright fascism and racism), and if they are family there is no way I’m going to cut them off just because they believe some BS the read on facebook about the deep state.

And some derive morbid amusement in refuting their nonsense. It also helps to keep one’s debate skills in fighting trim. Following the parade of delusions can unearth new forms of drivel to counter.

And there’s always the semi-mythical lurker who can be swayed by facts and common sense.

My point is one of attitude, much more than action. It’s how you feel about the people, not whether you choose to argue with them or ignore them.

For example, someone I’ve written off is someone I plan never to respect again, not even with some hints that they have changed a little, or on a subject far removed in time and content than the subjects I decided to treat him or her with contempt for.

If I’ve decided that someone is a lib-baiting racist, I’m not going to change my mind if that person for whatever reason in some future election to support my candidate. That person is irredeemably flawed, to my mind, and once I’ve given up, I’ve given up. Actions no longer matter to me. They’ve disqualified themselves from my friendship, and there’s no road back.

Or if there is, it’s a very long and tortuous road that no one can travel. I’m just finished with them.

I’m an atheist. I assure you, one gets used to it.

One problem is that they vote, and we have to live in the world that they vote on. If there get to be too many of these idiots, we can’t just ignore them. So what else can we do, but hope to try to persuade at least a few of them of reason?

I suppose the wisdom lies in knowing one has a finite number of patience/understanding/explaining units in one’s possession at any given time and that it makes way more sense to expend one unit each on people who are on the fence than to waste them all on one intractable asshole who can’t be swayed from his position with a D-9 Cat. To my mind the best expenditure of energy is figuring out a decision matrix that codifies when it’s profitable to engage and when it makes more sense to go off and watch clouds for a while. I’ve got my matrix dialled in pretty well and I understand that it’s not my responsibility to fix stupid.

Sure. But there are always new ones to try persuading. I’m talking about giving up permanently on ones you’ve already tried, and failed, with. Some people say “Never say die.” I say, “Die.”

Answering the question of the title: No, just about everyone understands the concept of “giving up on people”

But where you should draw the line on When to give up on someone is the place that lots of people differ.

I know people who will not give up on family / close friends, because they hope and pray that one day, something will click and they’ll recover the person they once were (loss due to politics, CT, religion, etc).

I know people who will not give up on people they believe are still capable of reason. That if they can find the right argument, or sufficient facts from a neutral source, that the person in question will reconsider.

I know people who will not give up on anyone, because they feel (possibly correctly) that as those people vote and influence others, there is a non-zero amount of harm in letting them speak unopposed. We have a substantial number of such people on the board (and a non-zero number that just love to argue) and it’s these people I respect - because their sort are the ones that one day charge the world, or are killed by it.

For myself, I draw the line when the emotional harm outweighs my desire to be right or the belief that a person can be saved. I have lost close friends to one of the above categories, and decided I was hurting myself by waiting for them to return to sanity.

I have abandoned distant family for the same reason. As of yet, I haven’t lost any close family, although I know several are Trumpers. They aren’t absolutely in the ‘2020 was stolen’ camp, but they certainly JAQ enough, although not recently.

But it’s always going to be a balancing act for all but the most callous and most driven.

That’s as funny as it is poignant, but …

I generally think of most politicians as being tilted much farther toward evil than toward stupid.

I distinctly remember (NY Times columnist) David Brooks saying that – while he never really interviewed Marjorie Taylor Greene – he knew lots of people who have, and that she “knows exactly what she’s doing.”

IMHO, we’re now entering the realm of the perpetual grift – the greedy and the ignorant.

‘Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.’

– Mark Twain

This, too, is that, and – I would guess – with significant overlap in the Venn Diagram.

So the target for my hypothetical impassioned arguments wouldn’t likely be the demagogic politician – Tom Cotton, Josh Hawley, MTG, Lauren Boebert, DeSantis, Trump, Tucker, Hannity, Coulter, D’Souza, Rush Pigbaugh, etc., etc.

It’d be the mindless consumer of the bile they’re lapping up, and – at least, personally – I haven’t had much luck tilting at those particular windmills.

And I’m tired. I’m the old troglodyte whose time it is to make arrows and leave our petroglyphic history on the cave walls. I’ll let the young Turks bring home some fresh mastodon meat :wink:

The problem is, unlike most drugs, propaganda rarely causes physical destruction of the person who is addicted (COVID excepted, I guess). The destruction is applied entirely to the society around them, and you can’t avoid it just by distancing yourself from the propaganda addict.

I have no idea what “rock bottom” will look like to these people. I’d expected COVID to be a rock bottom for them, and we saw how that worked out. So all I know is, “Rock bottom is worse than the worst of COVID.”