Smashed: I can’t understand why you would loathe SignWriting except that it’s seen as novel. It’s one and only use is to write the group of non-oral languages for which it is suited. Sound-based systems are not suited for that.
I´m with sven and Smashed Ice Cream - I don´t believe we normally think in any specific language, except when considering a specific problem or speaking to ourselves, or preparing to say something. That´s why it´s often so hard to express your thoughts - because you don´t have the words for them, at least not right there, you have to search for the right words…
I´m trilingual, and I´m frequently asked which language I think (or dream) in. Well, none. The actual thoughts are deep down there on a level not directly connected with language (I really should go and have another look at those Stephen Pinker-theories we did in Linguistics class…I think they were vaguely related to this, but I can´t recall what his conclusions were). Personally, as long as I´m not trying to formulate my thoughts or “speaking” with myself, I don´t think I use any specific language.
Of course, as soon as I try to focus clearly on a problem, it has to be clad into words, and that can be in any of my three “native” languages. When I was learning Spanish, I´d often find myself expressing my thoughts (still inside my head) in Spanish, but that´s already one step beyond “basic” thinking for me.
ummm…does any of this make sense? Two levels of thinking, the one being what really goes on inside your head and the other one the one being clad into words for communication or a thorough consideration of a problem? Just my two cents…
Same goes for dreams - unless someone is clearly speaking a certain language, they´re just in the language of my thoughts, mainly images - normally, when people say something to me in a dream (or I speak) I couldn´t say which language it is - it´s just a conveying of meaning.
A baby doesn’t have a concept of language yet but it has a concept of what it sees & therefore, would tend to think in pictures. e.g. a picture of a nice juicy milky breast & chuggin on it.
I met some hearing people who told me they sometimes think in sign language.
What I was wondering if when crazy Deaf people ‘hear’ voices, do they hear real voices or see signs?
handy: I think that many linguisticians consider that a baby human does have a concept of language, but just not a concept of a particular language yet. The latter develops as the child grows.
ultra: If you don’t mind, let’s revisit your statement about most congenitally deaf people being able to read. That very well may be true for the developed nations; however, I think there are two other issues involved with it – 1) Many countries have a low literacy rate to begin with, and 2) The language that the Deaf are reading and writing isn’t their native language (except, of course, if they’re using the aforementioned SignWriting).
I think Universe.zip hit the nail on the head. I know that I usually don’t think in words unless I’m doing something that requires a written/spoken output. Visual images are more common thoughts than words, but I think there’s another more basic level below that of abstract ideas. Sometimes, pictures or words help clarify those abstract thoughts, and to that extent I think the brain will very quickly resort to the tools it has. The need to brush one’s teeth is a great example. As you’re sitting at the computer, your subconscious slowly becomes aware of an uncomfortable feeling in the mouth. Eventually, your conscious mind takes notice, and tries to apply a schema or organized approach to the problem. “Icky mouth feeling” is translated into “Man, I need to brush my teeth” or “If teeth=dirty Then GoTo Brushing”.
While childrens’ brains are wired to be receptive to learning languages, languages are NOT natural. They are simply a technique to impose order on the observed world and communicate abstract ideas to others. We tend to think that languages have some life or inherent truth to them, but they’re really just tools, little different from a hammer or a screwdriver. If you have access to both, you’re going to use both, based on which is more appropriate for solving the current dilemma.
Not so strange, really - I’m Norwegian, but right now I’m thinking in English.
It happens with secondary languages; after using them for a few minutes you start thinking in them as well, but if you hear or read something in your mother tongue you will usually snap right back to that and have to start over. This is why it doesn’t work if you do it like Einstein and think in your mother tongue first and then translate.
Yes, I know I’m replying to a horribly old post, but I was catching up and nobody had pointed this out…
Oops. No, I wasn’t, I was looking at the wrong date. =)
Absolutely true. My American bias is showing again.
I would say they think in sign because there is evidence that the same part of the brain that controls speech for non-deaf people also controls language in signers.
Although slightly unrelated, there have been people with coprolalia (a tic associated with Tourettes syndrome that is basically uncontrollable cursing) who upon learning sign language will cuss in sign as well as vocally.
i used to think in Russian, then in both Russian and English, and now mostly in English but still sometimes in Russian 
as for Einstein, i have some books of his quotes and speeches and i think he said he thinks in terms of images or something, don’t remember but it was not words that much i can say.
Similarly to prior posts, my commonest thinking is the almost non-language rumbling, and ‘sentences’ only come up when I am getting it into shape to communicate it, or get the material laid out more formally.
There’s another one though. If I am really engrossed in doing something for long enough, some other part of my mind will come up with a very simple statement, such as, “I’m hungry!” or “I have GOT to go to the bathroom!”. It’s a whole lot as if a separate person has spoken, to get the business taken care of. And this other person or segment is just barely verbal and only comes up with words when it’s been ignored for too long. My guess is that if I was reading or speaking Spanish at this point, the words would come up in English.
(It gives me hope that when I get Alzheimer’s and the main brain is gone, the back-brain will be able to take care of business…)
Wups, that’s off-topic. How about this: The science-fiction writer Samuel R. Delaney, who worked with the deaf and was very interested in language, described once in detail how the logical chains in Sign are quite different than in standard English, ie, the thinking is different. Is this true?
I like how sign language cuts out the unneccesary little words. I also think its expressive range is extremely broad, and can be very subtle, and the deaf have great visual humour when they choose to use it!
My knowledge of it is extremely rudimentary, but I was able to enjoy a conversation in a nightclub with a couple of deaf people. (They could “feel” the music)
The teacher who I learned from, was born congenitally deaf.
She indicated to us that “spelling” was extremely difficult to learn, as there was no verbal aid - you know, like how children speak the sounds of letters in a word as they learn to read.
How can you do that when you have no idea of what “sound” is like?
She said also that it was a bit like having to identify the whole word at once, rather than learn by a,b,c - not as a sounded word, but as a “symbol” that meant whatever the word was about.
I hope I’ve understood her correctly here. I used to think that they would find reading “no trouble” myself, until I learned this.
The other thing I found interesting was the syllabic nature of signing - like “Mother” being the sign for “M” made twice upon the hand. (in NZ Sign.)
“Minute” was indicated in the same way. (it depended on the context.)
It might just be because one and two syllable words are fairly common, and as such this could be coincidental, however, I think it might also be something to do with the signing learnt by the partially deaf, or those who became deaf later in life - where the syllabic rhythm helped make the word clearer.
Headchecked - I was interested by that SignLanguage/Tourettes bit, btw.
My query - for the deaf, or people who know others who are deaf - is there a “poetry equivalent” in Sign Language?
(I imagine it to be more like prose)
“Originally posted by Broomstick
I worked for awhile with a woman who went deaf in her 20’s. After 25 years of being deaf, she told me that she could think in either English OR Sign.”
Yep, that sounds just like me, post-lingual late deafened adult, however, I think in pictures mostly… words & signs are too slow plus, as I suspected, trying to create abstract thoughts with sign language is next to impossible.
I bought a huge book at amazon.com (about $15.00) ‘Signing in 14 Languages’ I found it really interesting seeing how people sign the same one country to the next.
I just realized on rereading this that we may have a problem in that some readers are reading Sign (which is ideographic, like written Chinese, and a distinct language) and perhaps thinking “fingerspelling” [which is of course simply using hand gestures to indicate the spelling of an English (or Latin or !Kung) word.]
Handy or somebody, would you make up a simple sentence in Sign and describe how it would be signed – ideally, one where the English wording differs in sequence from the way it’s signed?
Well, oddly enough, that’s exactly what I do. I think to myself “this room is a mess” at the same time I realize that the room is a mess.
I will bet anything that my dog, Max, thinks in Smell.
I think Kjetil is correct. If I’m trying to use a second language, I find I get sort of “swtiched on.” I’ll be trying so hard to process whatever language it is that if you say something to me in, say, English, I will not be able to understand you until I’ve been able to switch back. When you first start learning a language, you have a tendency to translate it in your head. However, after a while, you simply understand (well, more or less) and respond. At this point, you are no longer thinking in your native tongue. In fact, you aren’t really thinking in any language at all.
Same thing with mathematics. If you are trying to solve a math problem or playing chess, you aren’t thinking in language. Chess grandmasters for example, appear to have unique “memory chunking” skills that allow them to think about chess in a qualitatively different way. Cite
You can think in sign in english word order.
“I’m happy”
You can think in sign in ASL word order.
“Me happy me”
You can think in sign in ASL word order & convert to written english.
It starts getting complex.
Pictures work for me & so does english
universe.zip pointed me to this thread. Apparently I missed it the first time around.
Keeping in mind I am still learning ASL and can hold a conversation but am not fluent yet, here is how I would translate this into ASL:
“Today, make Turkey Florentine casserole dinner. Cat, table, jumped-on, knocked-off. Now, eat hot dogs, beans.”
The words today, make, cat, table, now (same as ‘today’), eat (same as ‘dinner’), hot dogs, and beans all have signs. I don’t think there are signs for Florentine or casserole, so those would be fingerspelled. Jumped-on would be acted out with one hand being the table, the other the cat. Knocked-off would be acted out with just a swipe of the hand, as if you were the cat. (Words with dashes between them would be relayed in one sign.)
Also, if this happened to me and I was telling it to someone in ASL, I would give details & use facial expressions, turn it into a story. “Today, cook, cook, cook. Turkey Florentine casserole dinner! Nice! Chop, stir, pour, bake, phew! Work hard - done finally! Looked good. (Sigh) Table - take-pan-out-of-oven-set-down. (hands on my hips, self-satisfied look on my face) Cat, jumped-on, knocked-off. Grrrr! BAD CAT! Scold-cat! (Sigh) Now, you-me eat hot dogs, beans. Cat? Nice Turkey dinner.”
TBlue, yes, there is sign language poetry. Instead of rhyming words, poets will use words that have similar handshapes or placement so it is visually pleasing - like a hearing poet will make rhyming words sound pleasing.
There’s lots of interesting stuff about Deaf Culture in this book:
COOL!!! It almost sounds like a bridge between poetry and dance where (verbal) poetry plays to the ear and (sign) poetry plays to the eye.