“Yeah, Sergey, no one is gonna know what you mean when you tell them to Google it” ~Larry Page, Probably
…it’s not random people. And sometimes it’s the perfectly cromulent thing to do.
I think it’s unreasonable to expect the people here to remember the preferred pronouns of everyone. And it’s unreasonable to expect everyone to remember your own preferred pronouns. But I think we can have some general guidelines which minimizes any issues. For example:
- Gender specific pronouns he/she: Only used when you are very confident the person prefers those pronouns
- Generic gender neutral pronoun they: Can be used for anyone
- Other gender neutral pronouns like zim/sie/em/ver/whatever: Only used when you have some significant reason to believe the person prefers that form of pronoun
One reason I don’t like the other gender neutral pronouns in the general case is that it’s not clear what the meaning is. I can obviously see that it’s a personal pronoun, but I’m not sure what the difference is between the meanings of zim/sie/etc. And it also implies that the person is not cis-gendered. So if if I see “You should meet Pat. Em is really nice”, one of the takeaways is that Pat is trans or some other non-cis gender since that’s typically who those pronouns are currently used with.
On a board like this, no one can expect to always be called by their preferred pronouns even after that person has mentioned their preferred pronouns. However, everyone has a right to not be misgendered. So if we can say that “they” is always an acceptable pronoun, it will avoid most issues. If in doubt, use “they”. If you know the person prefers something more specific, use that.
So, we’ve gone pretty far down the pronoun rabbit hole here.
If you call someone He and they correct you and you keep going He, that’s being a jerk and could earn a warning.
They is perfectly acceptable to use as a singular when you don’t know a preference.
There is zero reason to expect people to use zim/sie/em/ver/ at this point. Even Cis is asking a lot. I’m just getting used to that one myself.
Thank you, this is very reasonable and I agree completely.
No disagreement here.
People are pretty dang smart when it comes to language. They encounter made up words every day and manage to understand what’s being talked about.
Orly?
How do you think new words get adopted? Some random person makes it up and just goes ahead and starts using it in casual conversation. It happens literally (and I mean literally) all the time.
I disagree with point 3. There’s no reason not to say that they/zim/sie/em/ver/whatever gender neutral pronouns can be used for everyone.
Unless you’re a published member of the non-binary community or a famous rapper, no one is going to adopt your new words.
Is that meant to be an anti-non-binary or racist joke? Because it’s certainly not true.
I’ve been using these pronouns for a couple of decades now, in certain circumstances, and they are very useful.
You mean like electronic mail, distant viewing, distant speaking, and distant writing? People can usually figure out new words based on the roots, or at least look them up easily enough.
In which mainstream dictionary will one find e or es being defined as Ascenray did? Searching for “e” online would be pointless.
Quite irrelevant to what you said. When those words were first coined, you couldn’t look them up in a dictionary either. And of course you left out the words without clear roots. How many people today really understand that blog comes from web log?
What if some people object to being called by some or all of these alternative gender neutral pronouns? This site has about 13 different gender neutral pronouns. I would assume they are not all equivalent in meaning and some people will prefer some over others. I see this issue as a practical problem with a board like this with so many members. No one can remember what everyone’s pronouns are. Just as a theoretical, what would happen if someone flagged a post where you referred to them as “em” and they found it offensive. Should the mods give you a warning or should they tell the person not to be offended?
In line with this thread, it seems like there should be a clear policy with use of gender neutral pronouns. Mods, are people permitted to use any gender neutral pronoun they like even if the person being referred to finds that gender neutral pronoun offensive?
Not going to lie, if I saw someone using zie/zim in the wild I would assume they are mocking Germanic languages or something.
~Max
Early every year I tell my students that “What if?” questions will be answered, “THAT is when I release the krakens.” I’m happy to answer their questions about the real world and about things that are happening and concern them; but I literally don’t have enough hours left in my life to answer all the “What if?” questions that my students can come up with. They’re very creative.
In that spirit, may I suggest that we not spend too much time worrying over scenarios that aren’t happening, when there’s enough to worry about with what’s actually happening? At the point where someone is called by a gender-neutral pronoun, objects, and the person using it persists, that sounds like a fine subject for a new thread.
And when it starts, that is when I release the krakens.
I find singular “they” offensive. Now what?
If I get warned for referring to you as “they”, there’s a good chance I won’t submit any posts where I have to give you a pronoun (aside from “you”, maybe). It’s not worth the trouble or the risk. (If we were close friends, that would be different. I would just remember.)
If something like that bothers you so much, I recommend making your profile public and adding your preferred pronouns to the top of the description.
~Max
No you don’t. That sort of “wait watch me be offended now I win” behavior trivializes real concerns that people have. It’s a shitty thing to do.
We don’t answer hypotheticals. If the day ever comes when such an event transpires on the board, report it and we’ll deal with it.