My reading of the rules leads to two related paradoxes. Consider this argument, you do not have to agree with it to see the paradox:
Debating the validity of someone’s gender is encouraging readers to treat others differently based on their gender
encouraging readers to treating people differently because of their gender constitutes encouraging gender discrimination
it is against the rules to encourage gender discrimination without mod approval
The first bullet point is contentious, and that’s the problem. If true, the debate would be against the rules. If false, the debate (or at least a major argument) would be moot. That’s the first paradox.
Similarily, consider this argument:
Debating whether transgender identities are valid gender identities constitutes a personal attack or hate speech directed against transgender board members
personal attacks upon transgender board members are against the rules
As with before, the first bullet point is contentious. If true, the debate would be against the rules. If false, the debate (or at least a major argument) would be moot. That’s the second paradox.
I suggest that the uncertainty is unhealthy for the moderators’ free time on Sunday afternoons and for the community as a whole. I say the Board or its administration should either officially take a side on these issues by prohibiting/crippling one side of the transgender debate, or change the rules. I see no middle ground.
~Max
P.S. I have no horse in this race
GD/P&E Rule against Thrice Told Tales/encouraging discrimination
Thrice Told Tales are off limits. Over the last 20 years, posters in Great Debates and Politics and Elections have debated pretty much everything. As such, there are some contentious issues about which we are tired of hearing. We just don’t want to go around and around about these things any more. In general, we’re just tired of these subjects. It may, however, be that there’s something new under the sun. Posters may start threads on these subjects only with prior approval of a Great Debates or Politics and Elections moderator. If you think you’ve got a new angle on something we’ve discussed a million times and found unpleasant, please feel free to make your case. Getting one approved is a very heavy lift, however.
[…]
Encouraging discrimination against any minority groups. This can include race, gender, sexual orientation or any other group into which a person might belong. Such depresses debate and discussion and in contrary to the goals of Great Debates and Elections
Rule against personal attacks
Personal Insults – Do not directly insult or personally attack other posters. The general rule is to attack the other poster’s arguments, rather than the other poster him- or herself. This rule applies to all insults, including jokes and quotes from books & movies, as others may not get the joke. There is an exception in the BBQ Pit forum where insults are permitted. Please see specific rules for the BBQ Pit here.
Rule against personal attacks
Hate Speech – Do not post hate speech directed against any race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, or gender in any forum.
I just posted this in ATMB: I love to debate, but the issue with this issue is that you cant debate it. You cant even take a middle ground, which is what I like to do. You either say “Yeah, absolutely, you are clearly very right” or stay out. I need to learn to stay out.
The rules of this message board are clear: you can be as much of a jerk as you want as long as your target is transgendered. There’s been plenty of transphobic hatred thrown around this past week without sanction.
The only question remaining is: how much of a jerk do you want to be?
And when you finally leave because of it, you’ll be another in an long list of high quality posters like @Eve and @una_persson who no longer darken our door because of the way they were treated as trans people.
That’s how I feel right now, so I don’t blame them. There is only so much bullshit you can put up with around here before you say enough. I shouldn’t have to put myself though this.
Yup. Just like we lost a lot of posters over the board’s misogyny before policy finally changed, we’ve lost a lot of wonderful posters over transphobia. I know what the rules have always been. I hope the mods–old and new–are seriously considering making changes to rein in the board’s transphobia similar to the changes made to rein in the board’s misogyny.
The attitude that I’ve gotten from the mods, even the ones like @puzzlegal who I thought would be more supportive, is that it’s better to ask/tell us to quiet down than to address the transphobia itself.
And then you have @RickJay who has stated many transphobic things himself.
The push to change the rules around misogyny took a long fuckin time, IIRC, and there were mods who were all LIGHTEN UP ITS FREE SPEECH, until they were finally overruled. I think it’s past time that the board took a look at its transphobic policies, and ask whether that’s who we want to be.
…are you denying that as recently as this year you have posted links to photographs of transwomen and called them men, knowing full well that they identify as women? Because that action in itself is as transphobic as you can get.
It wasn’t an attack. You are a moderator here and you post transphobic things. That’s an issue with moderation and the only place we are allowed to address that issue is here in ATMB. That you see it as “an attack” is part of the problem. Last time I raised the issue you attacked me here in ATMB then quickly deleted the response. If we had a moderator that posted racist or sexist things then I think that ATMB would be the appropriate place to discuss it. I don’t think transphobia should be any different.
Una was harassed repeatedly for being trans and the only reason the guy was banned in the end is he threatened to beat the shit out of her. She told me she planned to leave because of transphobia.
This is an aside, but why is it impossible to tag some posters or search by their username? Is this an account setting somewhere?
So if the Mods are to change things here, I suspect many of us need to also be better educated on this subject.
I’ve met Eve, she came to my house for a Dopefest. She is missed as a poster and a font of knowledge.
Una I never met but she was an awesome poster and I believe the Chief Researcher for Cecil for many years.
But I don’t actually know much about this subject. Could we start a dialogue in a thread without preconceived assumptions from those the issue is near and dear to and the mods? In the Op I would warn people that any negative trans remarks or hijacks would earn a warning.
Una can be tagged as @Una_Persson; you have to have the case right and the underline.
So now stating someone has said transphobic things is a personal attack? Yeah, I’ve been given a note about that before, it’s bullshit.
You have said many hateful and transphobic things about us in the JK Rowling thread. You constantly say transwomen aren’t women and that we are men and therefore are also calling ME a man. Your views are extremely transphobic and hateful to me and as a moderator participating in that discussion backing up the other transphobic arguments, I felt your participation and agreement gave an official sanction to transphobia on this board.
So what can I do when transphobia is not only given a pass by the mods, but is even perpetuated by a mod (you)?
We have a “dialogue” going right here, which is one of the few places I feel safe to post about this on the board. And “preconceived assumptions”? These are my lived experiences dealing with crap like this.
Should it be within the rules to debate the gender of people who are not transgendered?
If I don’t think that someone conforms to my perceived gender stereotypes, would misgendering them be acceptable? Would debating whether someone is “manly” enough to be considered a man, or “feminine” enough to be considered a woman be acceptable?
If not, then debating whether a transgendered person is of the gender that they present as shouldn’t be either. If so, then that’s pretty messed up, IMHO.
The transphobia on this board is pretty rampant. Just not being transphobic and agreeing with the side of the “debate” that a transgendered person is not the gender they present as is enough to get you attacked with all sorts of assumptions about one’s character and blatant mischaracterizations of one’s position.
It’s enough that I’ve pulled back substantially on my time here, and I’m not directly affected. It does seem as though the transphobes on this board have become more emboldened by the fact that they do not get so much as a note as they call others misogynists for not agreeing with them, nor for insisting on misgendering transgendered people(both other posters and also those in public), and that it is their targets who get modded for daring to defend themselves.
You cant even take a middle ground, which is what I like to do. You either say “Yeah, absolutely, you are clearly very right” or stay out. I need to learn to stay out.